The Dresden Files > DFRPG
Earth magic responsible for weapons skill?
Taran:
--- Quote from: nadia.skylark ---yeah, I'm just going to represent this with an upgrade of the easy evocations power (written up on another thread). That makes more sense.
--- End quote ---
The mechanics of the game are, literally, built on aspects. You seem reluctant to use these mechanics to solve your issues. Are you finding aspects aren't getting used much in your games?
nadia.skylark:
--- Quote ---The mechanics of the game are, literally, built on aspects. You seem reluctant to use these mechanics to solve your issues. Are you finding aspects aren't getting used much in your games?
--- End quote ---
I'm trying to use the RPG character progression system to keep track of my fan fiction character's growth while controlling the rate at which she improves so that she doesn't end up a Mary Sue. Aspects are significantly less useful for this than they are in actual games.
Mr. Death:
--- Quote from: nadia.skylark on May 24, 2019, 12:27:55 AM ---What I was trying to say was that, given how many things the ideal warden ought to be able to do, there's no point in worrying about less-than-excellent swordsmanship, since there's no way they can be good at everything. I feel like this didn't come across, though.
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Nobody's going to be an "ideal" Warden. They're going to be great at some things, good at others, and passable at the rest. There's no reason to expect them to be experts at everything they need to be good at.
--- Quote ---About the battle: the impression I got when reading about it was that A) Morgan was mostly, if not entirely, responsible for getting as close as he did, which is one of the things that made it so impressive; and B) that this battle demonstrated that Morgan was better than 99% of wardens. This is what I have based my assumptions on. Other people, naturally, are free to read it differently.
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I think both those assumptions are unfounded. It's a battle -- dozens, if not hundreds of guys to a side. Morgan might have been leading the charge and he might have been one of the best fighters on the field, but that doesn't mean that he's got some hitherto unknown power that puts him leaps and bounds above Shiro.
--- Quote ---And yes, Morgan's character write-up already includes his sword skills. I brought up substituting this power for that because other people have said that his build is not optimized--not because it doesn't do what it's supposed to.
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Who's said that? And why does he need to be "optimized"?
--- Quote ---My assertions about Shiro being under-statted are based on character write-ups that we see in Paranet Papers. Specifically, I believe that if Shiro is, as he is described, "Mozart with a sword" then A) he should have his highest skills equal to the highest skills of Senior Council members (since they're the best at what they do) and he doesn't; and B) that he should have combat stunts at least equal to Murphy (since she is very good, but isn't supposed to be better than him) and from what I remember, he doesn't.
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Magic and swordfighting are different things. The Senior Council members are each at least a couple hundred years old, and have used a lot of that time to get better at magic. Shiro did not have the benefit of hundreds of years, and is limited by his human body in a way that magic isn't, because Weapons is a physical skill.
Shiro's got a base Weapons of 6, and the Sword gives him a +1 on top of that. Neither Murphy's guns nor fists scores are up to that, and how many stunts one has is not a measure of how good they are.
--- Quote ---Yeah, I'm just going to represent this with an upgrade of the easy evocations power (written up on another thread). That makes more sense.
--- End quote ---
I still don't see how it makes any sense, when there are several ways to do it by the RAW.
--- Quote from: nadia.skylark on May 24, 2019, 01:56:24 AM ---I'm trying to use the RPG character progression system to keep track of my fan fiction character's growth while controlling the rate at which she improves so that she doesn't end up a Mary Sue. Aspects are significantly less useful for this than they are in actual games.
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You think giving her a power that amounts to, "Make her far better with a sword than the canon character who's universally known as the best with swords" is going to prevent her from being a Mary Sue?
I'm pretty sure "Better than the canon character at the canon character's specialty" is one of the top 5 Mary Sue traits.
Edit: Combined with the other threads for (I'm presuming) this same character, it looks like you're aiming for someone who:
A. Is better at swording than the undisputed master of swording (Shiro)
B. Can shrug off and ignore most damage better than the undisputed master of getting his face kicked in (Harry)
C. Can take more damage than anyone else in a single blow and keep fighting
and D. Is a lawbreaker, but with more and better bonuses to the powers than Lawbreaker has in canon.
You say you want to avoid being a Mary Sue, but from those threads it's starting to look like a Mary Sue checklist.
Limits and believability are what make a great character -- not ratcheting up all their stats to the point of making them unbeatable.
nadia.skylark:
--- Quote ---Nobody's going to be an "ideal" Warden. They're going to be great at some things, good at others, and passable at the rest. There's no reason to expect them to be experts at everything they need to be good at.
--- End quote ---
Yes. That's what I am saying.
--- Quote ---I think both those assumptions are unfounded. It's a battle -- dozens, if not hundreds of guys to a side. Morgan might have been leading the charge and he might have been one of the best fighters on the field, but that doesn't mean that he's got some hitherto unknown power that puts him leaps and bounds above Shiro.
--- End quote ---
--- Quote ---You think giving her a power that amounts to, "Make her far better with a sword than the canon character who's universally known as the best with swords" is going to prevent her from being a Mary Sue?
I'm pretty sure "Better than the canon character at the canon character's specialty" is one of the top 5 Mary Sue traits.
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Okay, can you please explain to me why you're convinced that I'm trying to make wizards better fighters that Shiro when I have specifically stated that I do not want this, and have attempted to modify this power to avoid it (however dubiously successfully) every time someone said that it was what the power was doing?
In a battle of Shiro vs. Morgan, here's how I see things playing out:
-If Shiro is on official Knight business and Morgan has his magic, Shiro wins hands down.
-If Shiro is on official Knight business and Morgan does not have his magic, Shiro wins hands down.
-If Shiro does not have TWG helping and Morgan has his magic, then it's a draw or Morgan maybe wins.
-If Shiro does not have TWG helping and Morgan does not have his magic, then Shiro wins hands down.
--- Quote ---Who's said that? And why does he need to be "optimized"?
--- End quote ---
Sanctaphrax, for one, and he doesn't need to be, I just think it would be interesting if he were.
--- Quote ---Magic and swordfighting are different things. The Senior Council members are each at least a couple hundred years old, and have used a lot of that time to get better at magic. Shiro did not have the benefit of hundreds of years, and is limited by his human body in a way that magic isn't, because Weapons is a physical skill.
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Shiro is the equal or superior of someone who has had two thousand years to practice his swordsmanship.
--- Quote ---Shiro's got a base Weapons of 6, and the Sword gives him a +1 on top of that. Neither Murphy's guns nor fists scores are up to that, and how many stunts one has is not a measure of how good they are.
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Fair enough.
--- Quote ---I still don't see how it makes any sense, when there are several ways to do it by the RAW.
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I'm going to be blunt here, and I apologize for my rudeness, but I don't care if you think it makes sense to do things this way, so long as it isn't overpowered.
Mr. Death:
--- Quote from: nadia.skylark on May 24, 2019, 03:04:41 PM ---Yes. That's what I am saying.
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I'm confused then, because it also seems that you're saying this is a problem that you're trying to address, by giving a Warden an artificially high Swords power to more than compensate.
--- Quote ---Okay, can you please explain to me why you're convinced that I'm trying to make wizards better fighters that Shiro when I have specifically stated that I do not want this, and have attempted to modify this power to avoid it (however dubiously successfully) every time someone said that it was what the power was doing?
--- End quote ---
Shiro has a Weapons skill of 6. Applying the Easy Evocations ability to swordplay allows a Warden to start with an effective Weapons skill of 10 and then keep improving it through Refinements. Even with the modifications (-2 penalty; halving the bonuses), it's still something that can and will grow well beyond what Shiro is capable of, no matter what other stunts he takes.
How can I interpret that as anything besides, "The end result is wizards will be better at swordplay than Shiro"?
--- Quote ---In a battle of Shiro vs. Morgan, here's how I see things playing out:
-If Shiro is on official Knight business and Morgan has his magic, Shiro wins hands down.
-If Shiro is on official Knight business and Morgan does not have his magic, Shiro wins hands down.
-If Shiro does not have TWG helping and Morgan has his magic, then it's a draw or Morgan maybe wins.
-If Shiro does not have TWG helping and Morgan does not have his magic, then Shiro wins hands down.
--- End quote ---
Morgan wins easily if he has his magic.
Earth magic includes magnetism and Shiro's sword is made of steel. Morgan can -- like Harry has done -- make something magnetic enough that Shiro's spindly 80-year-old arms can't overcome it. As far as I know, the Swords do not have protection against magic working on them -- in fact, Harry uses exactly this quality on Amoracchius in Grave Peril to send Mavra flying across the room.
And I'm not sure in what situation Morgan wouldn't have his magic; but if he didn't, then yeah, the Shiro wins, if narrowly because Morgan is still pretty good at swording.
--- Quote ---Sanctaphrax, for one, and he doesn't need to be, I just think it would be interesting if he were.
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I disagree. Optimized characters tend to be less interesting than ones that have to get clever and creative to get things done.
--- Quote ---Shiro is the equal or superior of someone who has had two thousand years to practice his swordsmanship.
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Yes, because of the aforementioned physical limitations of the human body -- limitations that do not apply to magic.
--- Quote ---I'm going to be blunt here, and I apologize for my rudeness, but I don't care if you think it makes sense to do things this way, so long as it isn't overpowered.
--- End quote ---
And I'm saying it is overpowered, at least potentially. Rolling an essentially free attack from 5 or 6 is already powerful; rolling it from 7 or 8 or 9 or higher thanks to this proposed power is going to overshadow characters whose Weapons ability is supposed to be their specialty and niche.
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