The Dresden Files > DFRPG

Earth magic responsible for weapons skill?

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nadia.skylark:

--- Quote ---I'm confused then, because it also seems that you're saying this is a problem that you're trying to address, by giving a Warden an artificially high Swords power to more than compensate.
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Ah, sorry. What I was saying was that I was trying to do that, and then realized that there was no point.


--- Quote ---Shiro has a Weapons skill of 6. Applying the Easy Evocations ability to swordplay allows a Warden to start with an effective Weapons skill of 10 and then keep improving it through Refinements. Even with the modifications (-2 penalty; halving the bonuses), it's still something that can and will grow well beyond what Shiro is capable of, no matter what other stunts he takes.
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--- Quote ---And I'm saying it is overpowered, at least potentially. Rolling an essentially free attack from 5 or 6 is already powerful; rolling it from 7 or 8 or 9 or higher thanks to this proposed power is going to overshadow characters whose Weapons ability is supposed to be their specialty and niche.
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Actually, applying Easy Evocations to swordplay allows a warden to start with an effective weapons skill of 4-5 and then keep improving it through refinements. The fact that it can get so high is not an isolated problem, it's just one part of a larger problem which I've already mentioned, and will repost here:


--- Quote ---The problem, as I understand it, is that due to refinement bonuses being able to boost one's skills much higher than you can with stunts (because stunts don't stack) wizards hit harder in combat. The limitation is usually that they can only make a limited number of attacks, so anything that increases or removes the limit is a problem.

To fix this, you can:
A) not allow anything that increases or removes the limit
B) weaken anything wizards do that is covered by the increase or removal of the limit
C) give other characters something similar to wizards' refinement bonuses
--- End quote ---

I am addressing this partly through B, and partly through handwaving the issue by saying "there's something that does C." I can do this because I am not using this power in a game, and don't need to stat out any character besides my main character--thus, I can just write Shiro as being better at swordsmanship than anyone else without having to come up with the specific mechanics of how it happens.

This power probably should not be used in actual games until someone actually writes up something that does C. However, while I would like to do that, I just don't know enough about the system to manage it, and the one thing I suggested, I was told would not work.


--- Quote ---How can I interpret that as anything besides, "The end result is wizards will be better at swordplay than Shiro"?
--- End quote ---

You can interpret it as me trying to avoid that outcome.


--- Quote ---Morgan wins easily if he has his magic.

Earth magic includes magnetism and Shiro's sword is made of steel. Morgan can -- like Harry has done -- make something magnetic enough that Shiro's spindly 80-year-old arms can't overcome it. As far as I know, the Swords do not have protection against magic working on them -- in fact, Harry uses exactly this quality on Amoracchius in Grave Peril to send Mavra flying across the room.

And I'm not sure in what situation Morgan wouldn't have his magic; but if he didn't, then yeah, the Shiro wins, if narrowly because Morgan is still pretty good at swording.
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So now you're saying that I'd be right to give Morgan an ability that lets him beat Shiro at swords? I'm confused. (Also, I would tend to assume that that kind of magnetism trick wouldn't work if the sword was in the hands of a rightful bearer. Otherwise all the Denarians would just learn a few earth magic spells and the Knights wouldn't be a threat.)


--- Quote ---I disagree. Optimized characters tend to be less interesting than ones that have to get clever and creative to get things done.
--- End quote ---

Agree to disagree.


--- Quote ---Yes, because of the aforementioned physical limitations of the human body -- limitations that do not apply to magic.
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I don't know. We've seen Nicodemus move so fast he can't be seen moving. We know that Nicodemus has the ability to enhance his physical abilities (through Anduriel. Just because he doesn't do any obvious shapeshifting doesn't mean he doesn't up his speed or whatever). We know that Nicodemus is the equal or inferior of Shiro when it comes to swordsmanship. Based on this, one could make a good case that physical limitations are not that much of a problem when it comes to the weapons skill.

On the other hand, we have Ursiel saying that Shiro is less capable now than when he was younger, so it could go either way.

Mr. Death:

--- Quote from: nadia.skylark on May 24, 2019, 04:04:25 PM ---Ah, sorry. What I was saying was that I was trying to do that, and then realized that there was no point.
--- End quote ---
Ah, gotcha.


--- Quote ---Actually, applying Easy Evocations to swordplay allows a warden to start with an effective weapons skill of 4-5 and then keep improving it through refinements. The fact that it can get so high is not an isolated problem, it's just one part of a larger problem which I've already mentioned, and will repost here:

I am addressing this partly through B, and partly through handwaving the issue by saying "there's something that does C." I can do this because I am not using this power in a game, and don't need to stat out any character besides my main character--thus, I can just write Shiro as being better at swordsmanship than anyone else without having to come up with the specific mechanics of how it happens.
--- End quote ---
So, basically, the answer is just going ahead with inflation? I'm still not sure I understand the "problem" you're trying to address here.

So to clarify, is the problem that wizards only have a limited number of attacks with magic?


--- Quote ---This power probably should not be used in actual games until someone actually writes up something that does C. However, while I would like to do that, I just don't know enough about the system to manage it, and the one thing I suggested, I was told would not work.
--- End quote ---
I'd say it definitely should not be used in actual games. Straight up inflation of skills isn't really the solution that this game is built for.


--- Quote ---You can interpret it as me trying to avoid that outcome.
--- End quote ---
You wouldn't have to work to avoid the outcome if you were not proposing a power that, at its base, creates that outcome.


--- Quote ---So now you're saying that I'd be right to give Morgan an ability that lets him beat Shiro at swords? I'm confused. (Also, I would tend to assume that that kind of magnetism trick wouldn't work if the sword was in the hands of a rightful bearer. Otherwise all the Denarians would just learn a few earth magic spells and the Knights wouldn't be a threat.)
--- End quote ---
I'm saying Morgan has an ability to beat Shiro -- just not if he's fighting him sword-to-sword. Morgan's a wizard, why is he going to opt for a fighting style that puts him at the biggest disadvantage? If Morgan takes Shiro on in a straight swordfight, Shiro wins.

Though you're right that it might not work on a Sword of the Cross in the hands of a rightful wielder; it's a fairly reasonable assumption given what we know of the Swords, though we don't have direct, observed data.


--- Quote ---Agree to disagree.
--- End quote ---
Put it this way -- why do you think Tavi is the main protagonist of the Codex Alera instead of, say, one of the high-powered High Lords?

Why is dumb-and-out-of-control Harry the protagonist of The Dresden Files instead of Ebenezer?


--- Quote ---I don't know. We've seen Nicodemus move so fast he can't be seen moving. We know that Nicodemus has the ability to enhance his physical abilities (through Anduriel. Just because he doesn't do any obvious shapeshifting doesn't mean he doesn't up his speed or whatever). We know that Nicodemus is the equal or inferior of Shiro when it comes to swordsmanship. Based on this, one could make a good case that physical limitations are not that much of a problem when it comes to the weapons skill.
--- End quote ---
Remember that the biggest thing the Swords do is level the playing field -- Nicodemus may well simply not have access to those enhanced physical abilities when he's up against a proper Knight.


--- Quote ---On the other hand, we have Ursiel saying that Shiro is less capable now than when he was younger, so it could go either way.
--- End quote ---
Also true. For all we know, that 6 of Shiro's might well be a downgrade from when he was in his prime -- or maybe in his prime, he had additional stunts having to do with his fighting style.

nadia.skylark:

--- Quote ---So, basically, the answer is just going ahead with inflation? I'm still not sure I understand the "problem" you're trying to address here.

So to clarify, is the problem that wizards only have a limited number of attacks with magic?
--- End quote ---

That's probably because the problem I'm addressing has evolved a bunch. It's gone from "Wardens like Morgan are unoptimized" to "How do you represent earth magic attacks as looking like mundane attacks?" to "If you already have the Easy Evocations power, how do you represent using a sword/staff/whatever as part of your attacks with that?"


--- Quote ---I'd say it definitely should not be used in actual games. Straight up inflation of skills isn't really the solution that this game is built for.
--- End quote ---

Fair enough.


--- Quote ---I'm saying Morgan has an ability to beat Shiro -- just not if he's fighting him sword-to-sword. Morgan's a wizard, why is he going to opt for a fighting style that puts him at the biggest disadvantage? If Morgan takes Shiro on in a straight swordfight, Shiro wins.
--- End quote ---

Okay, that makes sense. But, wait a minute, aren't the Swords supposed to level the playing field? If Shiro's on the job, then Fidellachius ought to be able to do something about Morgan's magic.


--- Quote ---Put it this way -- why do you think Tavi is the main protagonist of the Codex Alera instead of, say, one of the high-powered High Lords?

Why is dumb-and-out-of-control Harry the protagonist of The Dresden Files instead of Ebenezer?
--- End quote ---

Well, I've only read the first book and a half of Codex Alera, but from the descriptions I've read, doesn't Tavi end up not only the most powerful Crafter in the world, but also the leader of his civilization?


--- Quote ---Remember that the biggest thing the Swords do is level the playing field -- Nicodemus may well simply not have access to those enhanced physical abilities when he's up against a proper Knight.
--- End quote ---

--- Quote ---Also true. For all we know, that 6 of Shiro's might well be a downgrade from when he was in his prime -- or maybe in his prime, he had additional stunts having to do with his fighting style.
--- End quote ---

Good points.

Mr. Death:

--- Quote from: nadia.skylark on May 24, 2019, 05:21:13 PM ---That's probably because the problem I'm addressing has evolved a bunch. It's gone from "Wardens like Morgan are unoptimized" to "How do you represent earth magic attacks as looking like mundane attacks?" to "If you already have the Easy Evocations power, how do you represent using a sword/staff/whatever as part of your attacks with that?"
--- End quote ---
Yeah, I suppose the conversation has gone a bit far afield. That said, I think the idea behind easy evocations is that the lack of a weapon rating is meant to balance the ease of it and the free casting, in which case I'd say that just rolling it into the "flavor" or maybe having it as an aspect of the attack works better than tacking on a weapons rating (i.e., an earth easy evocation with a mistletoe staff can get around Balder's immunity).


--- Quote ---Okay, that makes sense. But, wait a minute, aren't the Swords supposed to level the playing field? If Shiro's on the job, then Fidellachius ought to be able to do something about Morgan's magic.
--- End quote ---
They are, but what exactly that entails is kind of murky at best. It might be that the 'evening the playing field' applies to things that are specifically opposed to the Swords, like demons and Denarians.

Or maybe you could invoke the Swords' holiness for a bonus to dodge/deflect magical attacks. The Sword can cut through reinforced steel walls like they were butter, so I see no reason it couldn't, say, cleave a boulder thrown at the wielder with magic.


--- Quote ---Well, I've only read the first book and a half of Codex Alera, but from the descriptions I've read, doesn't Tavi end up not only the most powerful Crafter in the world, but also the leader of his civilization?
--- End quote ---
(click to show/hide)Well, I'm not sure he's the most powerful -- he's only had a couple months of practice and shows no discrete furies -- and becoming the leader of his civilization only really happens in the epilogue, i.e., when he stops being a protagonist.

The point is that what makes Tavi interesting to follow so long is that he is at a disadvantage and has to make up for it; even when he grows into his power, his opponents can match that power or otherwise justify him needing it to survive. He might not be the best example in the long run.
--- Quote ---Good points.

--- End quote ---
Thank you :)

nadia.skylark:

--- Quote ---Yeah, I suppose the conversation has gone a bit far afield. That said, I think the idea behind easy evocations is that the lack of a weapon rating is meant to balance the ease of it and the free casting, in which case I'd say that just rolling it into the "flavor" or maybe having it as an aspect of the attack works better than tacking on a weapons rating (i.e., an earth easy evocation with a mistletoe staff can get around Balder's immunity).
--- End quote ---

This might work, yeah. That said, I feel like there's a pretty big difference between being able to get up to maybe weapon:3 at most, so long as you have your equipment, and being able to throw out weapon:10 attacks with either no equipment or equipment that's hard to take away from you, which is what evocation with enough refinement lets you do.


--- Quote ---Well, I'm not sure he's the most powerful -- he's only had a couple months of practice and shows no discrete furies -- and becoming the leader of his civilization only really happens in the epilogue, i.e., when he stops being a protagonist.

The point is that what makes Tavi interesting to follow so long is that he is at a disadvantage and has to make up for it; even when he grows into his power, his opponents can match that power or otherwise justify him needing it to survive. He might not be the best example in the long run.
--- End quote ---

Yeah. This is why I'm trying to track my character's progression, so that she always has enemies that are stronger than her (I'm also increasing the strength of some of the antagonists in the books who I feel were underpowered). Even when I get her to Kemmler-level (which is happening either in the epilogue or just in time for the final battle, I haven't decided which) she can still be stomped by lots of things that exist in the dresdenverse.

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