The Dresden Files > DFRPG
Earth magic responsible for weapons skill?
nadia.skylark:
--- Quote ---I still don't think any of this really addresses the issue of Warden optimality though.
--- End quote ---
True. But on reflection, wardens need high skills in:
Conviction
Discipline
Lore
any two/three of
-intimidation
-deceit
-rapport
-empathy
-presence
investigation
weapons
alertness
And they should probably also have decent athletics, endurance, contacts, and guns.
So I think the real problem with wardens is they need to be able to do a bunch of stuff, since they're sent out on their own to investigate suspicious stuff and hunt down warlocks, plus interface with minor talents (which admittedly they're not too good at) and they don't seem to be able to get much, if any, backup even when they have time to ask for it.
Mr. Death:
--- Quote from: nadia.skylark on May 23, 2019, 05:03:00 AM ---True. But on reflection, wardens need high skills in:
Conviction
Discipline
Lore
any two/three of
-intimidation
-deceit
-rapport
-empathy
-presence
investigation
weapons
alertness
And they should probably also have decent athletics, endurance, contacts, and guns.
So I think the real problem with wardens is they need to be able to do a bunch of stuff, since they're sent out on their own to investigate suspicious stuff and hunt down warlocks, plus interface with minor talents (which admittedly they're not too good at) and they don't seem to be able to get much, if any, backup even when they have time to ask for it.
--- End quote ---
Well, for a start... yeah, nobody's going to be super good at everything. That's how life -- and this game system -- works. If you spend all your time being swordy and magicy, something's going to fall to the wayside. That's why we see some Wardens that are better at one or the other (Yoshimo in Dead Beat, who Morgan outright says shouldn't have tried to use her sword because she's crap with it).
It's a balancing act, and I think some of the most fun parts of the game are when a character has to make use of his or her lower-point skills, because then they have to get creative instead of, "OK, just gonna roll my apex skill again and again."
Also 3 in a skill is still "decent." 4 and 5 are already exceptional, and 6 is explicitly more than humans are usually capable of.
I do not see any issue with just having Weapons, Discipline and Conviction filling the 3-5 slots. With focus items and specializations, that's more than enough to be badass with swords and a more than formidable caster. And hell, with a decent Lore, the Thaumaturgy power can let you be good at damn near any other skill with some prep time.
And again, this is just playing into the inflation -- suddenly Shiro's 6 in swordplay is understatted? 6 is literally beyond human ability.
I see a lot of unwarranted assumptions being made based on a fight we didn't see.
A 5 with Swords -- especially a Warden sword which can become Weapon:6 on command -- is already plenty good enough to carve your way through the Red Court's footsoldiers and ghouls without needing some "free" casting power.
Morgan doesn't have to have personally, individually taken out every single one of the Red King's bodyguards to have taken a swing at the Red King.
A. Morgan was not the only Warden in the battle and B. Morgan could have used some huge Earth evocation to simply knock the bodyguards away in one go
So again I fail to see the need for a stunt or power of this type; Morgan's write-up already has him as good with swords and a strong magic user. Unless you're buying into the whole "Anything below a 5 is weak" philosophy.
Mr. Death:
As for what it says in the Paranet Papers, I really do not think it's saying, "Use this to justify adding your spellcasting bonuses to other skills."
The way I read it:
--- Quote ---Instead of a literal shield, an earth block
--- End quote ---
An Earth Block Evocation spell ...
--- Quote ---might look like a series of coincidental dodges, with the wizard just instinctively knowing which way to move to avoid the attack.
--- End quote ---
is described differently, without changing the actual mechanics.
And...
--- Quote ---Instead of some electromagnetic distortion zapping people, an earth attack
--- End quote ---
An Earth evocation attack spell
--- Quote ---might look as though the wizard was really, really good at hand-to-hand fighting, always managing to slip past the opponent’s defense.
--- End quote ---
is described differently, without changing the mechanics.
--- Quote ---Perhaps the most advanced application of earth magic doesn’t look like magic at all— just the right things happening in response to anything the wizard does, always working out in his favor.
--- End quote ---
And he has an aspect that he can tag.
Taran:
--- Quote from: Mr. Death on May 23, 2019, 01:14:41 PM ---Well, for a start... yeah, nobody's going to be super good at everything. That's how life -- and this game system -- works. If you spend all your time being swordy and magicy, something's going to fall to the wayside. That's why we see some Wardens that are better at one or the other (Yoshimo in Dead Beat, who Morgan outright says shouldn't have tried to use her sword because she's crap with it).
It's a balancing act, and I think some of the most fun parts of the game are when a character has to make use of his or her lower-point skills, because then they have to get creative instead of, "OK, just gonna roll my apex skill again and again."
Also 3 in a skill is still "decent." 4 and 5 are already exceptional, and 6 is explicitly more than humans are usually capable of.
I do not see any issue with just having Weapons, Discipline and Conviction filling the 3-5 slots. With focus items and specializations, that's more than enough to be badass with swords and a more than formidable caster. And hell, with a decent Lore, the Thaumaturgy power can let you be good at damn near any other skill with some prep time.
And again, this is just playing into the inflation -- suddenly Shiro's 6 in swordplay is understatted? 6 is literally beyond human ability.
I see a lot of unwarranted assumptions being made based on a fight we didn't see.
A 5 with Swords -- especially a Warden sword which can become Weapon:6 on command -- is already plenty good enough to carve your way through the Red Court's footsoldiers and ghouls without needing some "free" casting power.
Morgan doesn't have to have personally, individually taken out every single one of the Red King's bodyguards to have taken a swing at the Red King.
A. Morgan was not the only Warden in the battle and B. Morgan could have used some huge Earth evocation to simply knock the bodyguards away in one go
So again I fail to see the need for a stunt or power of this type; Morgan's write-up already has him as good with swords and a strong magic user. Unless you're buying into the whole "Anything below a 5 is weak" philosophy.
--- End quote ---
@nadia.skylark
To reinforce this point and to touch on the point that Shiro’s +6 skill isn’t high enough.
1. He’s twice as good as a full professional swordsman
2. I play in a 19 refresh game where the skill cap is +6. My character’s weapon skill is 6 with a boost to 7 with a magic weapon.
-Mundane enemies are not a challenge at all.
—granted, the character has toughness powers and Incite Effect triggered off of weapons
-My character single handedly took out Lord Raith. It was a super hard fight and he had high refresh goons with him but his goons couldn’t touch my character. With fate points and maneuvers and tags, I was putting up +9 and 10 blocks and defending everything at +7.
If you boost things past the Ladder, then low skills become useless. I already find skills at +2 and 3 to be less useful because the high refresh enemies we are facing are usually able to defend against it. But it’s still perfectly fine against ‘normal’ enemies. If you push me to everything higher, then your mooks now all need to be full professional soldiers in every situation.
Regarding aspects: a taggable aspect is not equal to a straight +2 bonus. Aspects can be invoked for effect. So, instead of giving yourself a +2 to dodge, you can use that aspect to make an attack miss by compelling the aspect against the enemy, for instance. I feel you may be under-selling aspects.
nadia.skylark:
--- Quote ---Well, for a start... yeah, nobody's going to be super good at everything. That's how life -- and this game system -- works. If you spend all your time being swordy and magicy, something's going to fall to the wayside. That's why we see some Wardens that are better at one or the other (Yoshimo in Dead Beat, who Morgan outright says shouldn't have tried to use her sword because she's crap with it).
It's a balancing act, and I think some of the most fun parts of the game are when a character has to make use of his or her lower-point skills, because then they have to get creative instead of, "OK, just gonna roll my apex skill again and again."
--- End quote ---
What I was trying to say was that, given how many things the ideal warden ought to be able to do, there's no point in worrying about less-than-excellent swordsmanship, since there's no way they can be good at everything. I feel like this didn't come across, though.
--- Quote ---I see a lot of unwarranted assumptions being made based on a fight we didn't see.
A 5 with Swords -- especially a Warden sword which can become Weapon:6 on command -- is already plenty good enough to carve your way through the Red Court's footsoldiers and ghouls without needing some "free" casting power.
Morgan doesn't have to have personally, individually taken out every single one of the Red King's bodyguards to have taken a swing at the Red King.
A. Morgan was not the only Warden in the battle and B. Morgan could have used some huge Earth evocation to simply knock the bodyguards away in one go
So again I fail to see the need for a stunt or power of this type; Morgan's write-up already has him as good with swords and a strong magic user. Unless you're buying into the whole "Anything below a 5 is weak" philosophy.
--- End quote ---
About the battle: the impression I got when reading about it was that A) Morgan was mostly, if not entirely, responsible for getting as close as he did, which is one of the things that made it so impressive; and B) that this battle demonstrated that Morgan was better than 99% of wardens. This is what I have based my assumptions on. Other people, naturally, are free to read it differently.
And yes, Morgan's character write-up already includes his sword skills. I brought up substituting this power for that because other people have said that his build is not optimized--not because it doesn't do what it's supposed to.
--- Quote ---And again, this is just playing into the inflation -- suddenly Shiro's 6 in swordplay is understatted? 6 is literally beyond human ability.
--- End quote ---
--- Quote ---To reinforce this point and to touch on the point that Shiro’s +6 skill isn’t high enough.
1. He’s twice as good as a full professional swordsman
2. I play in a 19 refresh game where the skill cap is +6. My character’s weapon skill is 6 with a boost to 7 with a magic weapon.
-Mundane enemies are not a challenge at all.
—granted, the character has toughness powers and Incite Effect triggered off of weapons
-My character single handedly took out Lord Raith. It was a super hard fight and he had high refresh goons with him but his goons couldn’t touch my character. With fate points and maneuvers and tags, I was putting up +9 and 10 blocks and defending everything at +7.
If you boost things past the Ladder, then low skills become useless. I already find skills at +2 and 3 to be less useful because the high refresh enemies we are facing are usually able to defend against it. But it’s still perfectly fine against ‘normal’ enemies. If you push me to everything higher, then your mooks now all need to be full professional soldiers in every situation.
--- End quote ---
My assertions about Shiro being under-statted are based on character write-ups that we see in Paranet Papers. Specifically, I believe that if Shiro is, as he is described, "Mozart with a sword" then A) he should have his highest skills equal to the highest skills of Senior Council members (since they're the best at what they do) and he doesn't; and B) that he should have combat stunts at least equal to Murphy (since she is very good, but isn't supposed to be better than him) and from what I remember, he doesn't.
--- Quote ---As for what it says in the Paranet Papers, I really do not think it's saying, "Use this to justify adding your spellcasting bonuses to other skills."
The way I read it:
An Earth Block Evocation spell ...
is described differently, without changing the actual mechanics.
And...
An Earth evocation attack spell
is described differently, without changing the mechanics.
And he has an aspect that he can tag.
--- End quote ---
--- Quote ---Regarding aspects: a taggable aspect is not equal to a straight +2 bonus. Aspects can be invoked for effect. So, instead of giving yourself a +2 to dodge, you can use that aspect to make an attack miss by compelling the aspect against the enemy, for instance. I feel you may be under-selling aspects.
--- End quote ---
Yeah, I'm just going to represent this with an upgrade of the easy evocations power (written up on another thread). That makes more sense.
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