The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
I think Murphy is going to get killed here is why
Bad Alias:
I feel like Butters motivation and reasoning needed to be set up better. The thematic elements of trust and faith make sense. Everything after Butters' choice not to trust Harry makes sense. It's his choice not to trust Harry that doesn't make sense to me. Especially sense he went with "trust but verify" in Ghost Story and seemed to trust him just fine in Cold Days. He had access to all the information needed to be fine with Harry coming back via Bob. Also, everyone knows Dresden well enough to understand why he stole Bob instead of borrowing him. Their reactions are mostly exasperation. Harry comes back from the dead and acts exactly like everyone expects him to act.
If I recall correctly, Butters' only real concern about Harry in Cold Days is that the mantle might be a trick that isn't really helping Harry. (Unless the mantle has been retconned after Cold Days, Butters is almost certainly wrong). It seems to me that something happened off page that changed Butters' course. I don't think that sort of character change should happen off page without an on page explanation. That explanation may still be coming. For those not aware, there have been theories here that Andi was seriously injured either in Cold Days or after, and for some reason, Jim has only hinted at it. That could be the reason for Butters' change in character and will be revealed later.
On another point, Harry doesn't tell Karrin about the parasite in Cold Days or Skin Game. Between the two of them, Karrin is the first to bring it up. This leads me to believe that Karrin already knew about it because Harry told either Thomas or Murphy once he couldn't leave the island.
morriswalters:
--- Quote from: Mira on May 29, 2019, 07:32:06 PM ---She did visit him on the island.... That gives her more knowledge... I find it hard to believe that she wouldn't have said anything to him about the fight against the Fomen.. If she trusts him, she'd know he had a good reason for not leaving the island, thus not let Butters escalate into the state of mistrust and fear he arrived at...
--- End quote ---
I pretty much live and die by the text. It seems pretty clear.
@Bad Alias
I think the first chapter covers all the bases as well as it could without turning the intro into a book of it's own. He's afraid. And he acts the fool. He mentions Will and Georgia being hurt. But I think it is the realization of just how powerless he is. Which is all in the text.
nadia.skylark:
--- Quote ---On my reread of chapter one, in no particular order, Mab has used the Lake ice to keep people out. She's blocked access to Molly, she manipulated Harry's messages to his friends to Molly to sow distrust. She has effectively kept him from hooking up to his allies as time dragged by. Harry never meant to be there for all that time. Thank Mab.
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Yeah, but that was over the winter. From what I remember, Butters' issues had been developing since before Halloween.
--- Quote ---Why did Butters need to know?
--- End quote ---
To prevent him doing something stupid, which in fact he did. Even if other characters decided that he didn't need to know, Butters still should have said something to the effect that he had asked people what was going on, and no one had given him any answers.
--- Quote ---Butters steps over a line. Rather than walking away or creating distance until he could find clarity he turns into a snoop. As a character I don't like Butters. Anyone who did what he did in my personal space would find himself an outsider.
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This.
--- Quote ---I feel like Butters motivation and reasoning needed to be set up better. The thematic elements of trust and faith make sense. Everything after Butters' choice not to trust Harry makes sense. It's his choice not to trust Harry that doesn't make sense to me. Especially sense he went with "trust but verify" in Ghost Story and seemed to trust him just fine in Cold Days. He had access to all the information needed to be fine with Harry coming back via Bob. Also, everyone knows Dresden well enough to understand why he stole Bob instead of borrowing him. Their reactions are mostly exasperation. Harry comes back from the dead and acts exactly like everyone expects him to act.
If I recall correctly, Butters' only real concern about Harry in Cold Days is that the mantle might be a trick that isn't really helping Harry. (Unless the mantle has been retconned after Cold Days, Butters is almost certainly wrong). It seems to me that something happened off page that changed Butters' course. I don't think that sort of character change should happen off page without an on page explanation. That explanation may still be coming. For those not aware, there have been theories here that Andi was seriously injured either in Cold Days or after, and for some reason, Jim has only hinted at it. That could be the reason for Butters' change in character and will be revealed later.
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Agreed.
--- Quote ---Does this read like Murphy knows more than Butters? Or is framed to show that Murphy is working off of her understanding of Harry and not any knowledge?
--- End quote ---
--- Quote ---She did visit him on the island.... That gives her more knowledge... I find it hard to believe that she wouldn't have said anything to him about the fight against the Fomen.. If she trusts him, she'd know he had a good reason for not leaving the island, thus not let Butters escalate into the state of mistrust and fear he arrived at...
--- End quote ---
--- Quote ---On another point, Harry doesn't tell Karrin about the parasite in Cold Days or Skin Game. Between the two of them, Karrin is the first to bring it up. This leads me to believe that Karrin already knew about it because Harry told either Thomas or Murphy once he couldn't leave the island.
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There are indications both ways as to whether Murphy knew. Personally, I feel like her actions in this book fit best with her characterization as of Cold Days if she does know, but I can see how other people might feel differently.
--- Quote ---I think the first chapter covers all the bases as well as it could without turning the intro into a book of it's own. He's afraid. And he acts the fool. He mentions Will and Georgia being hurt. But I think it is the realization of just how powerless he is. Which is all in the text.
--- End quote ---
It doesn't deal with any of my issues about Butters' actions. There is nothing in there that tells me why Butters hasn't been asking questions or why he hasn't been using logic. When Butters has been afraid before, he's always tried to get information to deal with his fear. This time, he inexplicably just didn't. He was far more afraid, and far more powerless, in Dead Beat, and he acted far better.
huangjimmy108:
I think it is mistaken to compare book 15 Butters to his previous self. If we are saying that Butters is acting out of character, well perhaps Butters is indeed out of character. The cowardly nerd that is book 7 Butters would not be playing "Batman" as book 15 Butters did.
Information is power and it is dangerous. It is always Harry's standard MO to minimize the spread of information unless he has a very good reason to share. On his usual mode, Butters is unlikely to get involve in anything dangerous. Situations in which nescesitates Harry to share with Butters information like the existence of the parasite in his head simply does not exist before the event of skin game actually take place. Information like Harry has a psychic parasite in his head is not something you chat about with your friends during dinner time. It is something you dish out only when you find the need for it. Before book 15 actually happened, who would suspect the previously nerdy Butters to dare snoop around near the likes of Nicodemous?
Even if Harry is told that Butters is currently playing "Batman" recently, I doubt the idea of Butters actually spying on him will cross Harry's mind. It wouldn't cross Murphy's or Thomas's mind either. The guy is suppose to be backline support.
The danger of talking too much is demonstrated in book 15. Anduriel could see or hear things via shadows. If Anduriel can do this, other powers may have similar or even better spying capabilities. And Though Nicodemous's heist started in book 16, assuming that he did not scout around and begin spying and gathering information long before that is rather naïve. If Thomas told Butters about the parasite when Anduriel happened to be spying during Nicodemous's preparation phase, Hary's condition could possibly be revealed. It would not be difficult to deduce that the earing Harry is uncharacteristically wearing is his current weakness.
The above hypothetical example just show that even though the current condition seem calm and peaceful, it does not mean you can just open your mouth and say or ask anything. you don't know who could be watchingor listening. This would explain why Murphy and Thomas could not just told Butters about sensitive information, not even if Butters is complaining. Unless there is an urgent and specific need, it simply much safer to keep everything on a need to know basis. This kind of secretive conduct has become some kind of second instinct for anything and everyone who is verse in the supernatural world. Thomas and Murphy included. People don't just give away information or answer questions even if asked by a friend or ally. Getting information in the Dresdenverse is not that easy.
nadia.skylark:
--- Quote ---I think it is mistaken to compare book 15 Butters to his previous self. If we are saying that Butters is acting out of character, well perhaps Butters is indeed out of character. The cowardly nerd that is book 7 Butters would not be playing "Batman" as book 15 Butters did.
--- End quote ---
My problem with this is that, while character development is absolutely a thing, Butters' becoming a Knight clearly demonstrates that he's not supposed to have experienced a net negative development. And yet, while I can absolutely see Dead Beat Butters becoming a Knight given the proper circumstances, having Skin Game Butters become a Knight feels completely unjustified to me.
--- Quote ---Information is power and it is dangerous. It is always Harry's standard MO to minimize the spread of information unless he has a very good reason to share. On his usual mode, Butters is unlikely to get involve in anything dangerous. Situations in which nescesitates Harry to share with Butters information like the existence of the parasite in his head simply does not exist before the event of skin game actually take place. Information like Harry has a psychic parasite in his head is not something you chat about with your friends during dinner time. It is something you dish out only when you find the need for it. Before book 15 actually happened, who would suspect the previously nerdy Butters to dare snoop around near the likes of Nicodemous?
Even if Harry is told that Butters is currently playing "Batman" recently, I doubt the idea of Butters actually spying on him will cross Harry's mind. It wouldn't cross Murphy's or Thomas's mind either. The guy is suppose to be backline support.
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Harry might not have told Butters (although he might have. A lot of his character development has been about sharing information). But that's not the point. The point is that A) Butters should have asked, and there's no evidence he did; and B) the people he would have asked would be Murphy and Thomas, neither of whom conceal information as routinely as Harry does, and both of whom have been witness to his character development and who should therefore absolutely know that Butters is a lot more than backline support these days--Murphy was the one who told Harry that.
--- Quote ---The danger of talking too much is demonstrated in book 15. Anduriel could see or hear things via shadows. If Anduriel can do this, other powers may have similar or even better spying capabilities. And Though Nicodemous's heist started in book 16, assuming that he did not scout around and begin spying and gathering information long before that is rather naïve. If Thomas told Butters about the parasite when Anduriel happened to be spying during Nicodemous's preparation phase, Hary's condition could possibly be revealed. It would not be difficult to deduce that the earing Harry is uncharacteristically wearing is his current weakness.
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Yes, but neither Murphy nor Thomas had any way of knowing that. And even if they did, Butters clearly didn't know that because he treated Harry not telling him stuff as a reason to distrust Harry, rather than as a sensible security precaution--and like I've said before, there's no evidence that Butters was asking questions pre-Skin Game.
--- Quote ---The above hypothetical example just show that even though the current condition seem calm and peaceful, it does not mean you can just open your mouth and say or ask anything. you don't know who could be watchingor listening. This would explain why Murphy and Thomas could not just told Butters about sensitive information, not even if Butters is complaining. Unless there is an urgent and specific need, it simply much safer to keep everything on a need to know basis. This kind of secretive conduct has become some kind of second instinct for anything and everyone who is verse in the supernatural world. Thomas and Murphy included. People don't just give away information or answer questions even if asked by a friend or ally. Getting information in the Dresdenverse is not that easy.
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I'm unconvinced that either Thomas or Murphy have developed an instinct for routinely hiding information from their allies when they know that it is causing mistrust (unlike Harry). If anything, I would expect them to defer answering Butters' questions, had he asked them, until either A) they were behind a threshold; or B) they were behind wards; or C) they were at Michael's house; or D) they'd asked Harry if it was all right to share this info. And clearly none of those options were taken--which I tend to assume means either Butters didn't ask them questions about Harry or Murphy is being more manipulative and nasty than I have accused her of being, and Butters talked to her but not Thomas.
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