The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
I think Murphy is going to get killed here is why
morriswalters:
--- Quote from: nadia.skylark on May 29, 2019, 10:47:50 PM ---To prevent him doing something stupid, which in fact he did. Even if other characters decided that he didn't need to know, Butters still should have said something to the effect that he had asked people what was going on, and no one had given him any answers.
--- End quote ---
You do realize that the only person that can keep Butters from doing stupid things is the Butters. No other person can or should exercise that kind of control over someone else.
edit
If Harry had crossed over to the darkside, why would anything he said make any difference? A lie would be the order of the day. And if he thinks Murphy is being hoodwinked, she is unreliable as well. Can anybody provide any clarity on this?
kbrizzle:
While I don’t like SG Butters at all, I understand the overall point JB is trying to make with his character arc in the novel.
The way to look at SG Butters is to contrast him with his foil in the novel - Michael. By the time of SG, Michael is in more or less the same/ worse shape than Butters on paper - he is also powerless (has given up the Sword & is crippled from his SmF injuries) & likely has some inkling of what the Fomor are upto in Chicago. The difference between Michael & Butters is that Michael has faith - in both TWG & Harry.
I think that Butters’ arc in SG is supposed to say more about how TWG works in the DV than Butters’ lack of faith (since it is glossed over & not really referred to after the event, despite it leading to Murphy getting crippled & losing the Sword/ perhaps more). Butters at the point of TWG is fighting the good fight, but he is aware that he is losing - the Fomor, Lara & Marcone are all growing in power while the BFS isn’t faring so well. Naturally a sensitive, bookish introvert, the violence & loss have hardened him & made him much more cynical in his worldview. That he is viewed as a low-level information gatherer & not a warrior, he is likely left out of the loop by Molly, Murphy & Thomas on all important things (like stuff concerning Harry). As a result, Butters has lost faith in both TWG & Harry. The point of his being made a KotC is to restore that faith.
JB has noted in the series that a defining characteristic of a hero is being willing to risk your life against overwhelming evil because you believe it is right. In SG, Butters is doing that (albeit avoidably) when he gets caught.
One can argue that given what Butters believes (that Harry is living out a Pet Cemetary scenario - our issue in this thread is whether Butters should think this way) what he does is rather brave.
It is said that the difference between a brave act & a stupid one is results - this one didn’t pan out for Butters since Nic & his cabal are a much more formidable bunch than the Fomor yahoos running around Chicago post-Changes.
nadia.skylark:
--- Quote ---You do realize that the only person that can keep Butters from doing stupid things is the Butters. No other person can or should exercise that kind of control over someone else.
--- End quote ---
First, at least half my point was that Butters should have been asking the kind of questions that would prevent him from doing something stupid. Second, while it is obviously not anyone else's responsibility to keep Butters from doing stupid things, my point here is that giving him information very likely would have prevented him from doing something stupid, and that that is, in fact, a good reason to give him said information.
--- Quote ---If Harry had crossed over to the darkside, why would anything he said make any difference? A lie would be the order of the day. And if he thinks Murphy is being hoodwinked, she is unreliable as well. Can anybody provide any clarity on this?
--- End quote ---
..So now Butters' reasoning is "Harry's gone completely dark side, and not only that, he's tricked Thomas the vampire who grew up dealing with deception and manipulation, and not only that, he's tricked Murphy the incipient wielder of Fidellachius (bearing in mind that Knights are really hard to trick) who's known him for something like two decades at this point...oh, and he must also have tricked Bob too, even though Bob's personality is literally shaped by his wielder, so it seems impossible that Bob could not understand said wielder...so I'm just going to ignore anything anyone says about Harry, in fact, I'm not going to even ask--I'm not ignoring evidence, just trickery..." It seems implausible and out of character. Furthermore, if he was going to assume that Harry was this kind of master of deception, why would he ask Harry for an explanation in Skin Game, and why wouldn't he question this "master of deception" thing when Harry flat out said that he was involved in something shady rather than coming up with a convincing lie?
--- Quote ---While I don’t like SG Butters at all, I understand the overall point JB is trying to make with his character arc in the novel.
The way to look at SG Butters is to contrast him with his foil in the novel - Michael. By the time of SG, Michael is in more or less the same/ worse shape than Butters on paper - he is also powerless (has given up the Sword & is crippled from his SmF injuries) & likely has some inkling of what the Fomor are upto in Chicago. The difference between Michael & Butters is that Michael has faith - in both TWG & Harry.
I think that Butters’ arc in SG is supposed to say more about how TWG works in the DV than Butters’ lack of faith (since it is glossed over & not really referred to after the event, despite it leading to Murphy getting crippled & losing the Sword/ perhaps more). Butters at the point of TWG is fighting the good fight, but he is aware that he is losing - the Fomor, Lara & Marcone are all growing in power while the BFS isn’t faring so well. Naturally a sensitive, bookish introvert, the violence & loss have hardened him & made him much more cynical in his worldview. That he is viewed as a low-level information gatherer & not a warrior, he is likely left out of the loop by Molly, Murphy & Thomas on all important things (like stuff concerning Harry). As a result, Butters has lost faith in both TWG & Harry. The point of his being made a KotC is to restore that faith.
JB has noted in the series that a defining characteristic of a hero is being willing to risk your life against overwhelming evil because you believe it is right. In SG, Butters is doing that (albeit avoidably) when he gets caught.
One can argue that given what Butters believes (that Harry is living out a Pet Cemetary scenario - our issue in this thread is whether Butters should think this way) what he does is rather brave.
It is said that the difference between a brave act & a stupid one is results - this one didn’t pan out for Butters since Nic & his cabal are a much more formidable bunch than the Fomor yahoos running around Chicago post-Changes.
--- End quote ---
I get that Jim is trying to make a point--I just wish he'd done it differently. I've provided a scenario that would allow Butters to be both smart and suspicious, and I'm certain that other people could come up with more--but the way it's done just makes Butters look stupid and out of character.
Mira:
--- Quote ---I get that Jim is trying to make a point--I just wish he'd done it differently. I've provided a scenario that would allow Butters to be both smart and suspicious, and I'm certain that other people could come up with more--but the way it's done just makes Butters look stupid and out of character.
--- End quote ---
Exactly...
--- Quote ---..So now Butters' reasoning is "Harry's gone completely dark side, and not only that, he's tricked Thomas the vampire who grew up dealing with deception and manipulation, and not only that, he's tricked Murphy the incipient wielder of Fidellachius (bearing in mind that Knights are really hard to trick) who's known him for something like two decades at this point...oh, and he must also have tricked Bob too, even though Bob's personality is literally shaped by his wielder, so it seems impossible that Bob could not understand said wielder...so I'm just going to ignore anything anyone says about Harry, in fact, I'm not going to even ask--I'm not ignoring evidence, just trickery..." It seems implausible and out of character. Furthermore, if he was going to assume that Harry was this kind of master of deception, why would he ask Harry for an explanation in Skin Game, and why wouldn't he question this "master of deception" thing when Harry flat out said that he was involved in something shady rather than coming up with a convincing lie?
--- End quote ---
Exactly, it is implausible that Butters frustrated with the fact that they were losing the fight against the Fomen and that Harry wasn't there to help in the fight wouldn't at the very least express his frustration with the fact... Something Murphy seemed to know about, so the question remains did she do any reassurance at all to prevent this level of frustration? Why wasn't she effective at doing it? Or did she just ignore it because like a lot of people she undervalues Butters so she blew off his complaints...
morriswalters:
Your asking the unanswerable. The text is what it is. You can ask why all the characters act as they do, but the only answer is what the text gives you. This is meant to reveal a crisis of faith. Butcher harps on faith throughout the books. And faith isn't about facts. This is about how you deal with things when fear and uncertainty become the over riding emotions. The whole point of the chase sequence is to give Butters the reassurance that Jim has decided he needs. Butters screws the pooch and his friends forgive him and Harry regains his Superman cred and Butters faith is restored. Thus setting up the final act. I dislike this story line but I'm fairly sure that Jim doesn't care.
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