The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Mab is Nfected question
nadia.skylark:
--- Quote ---I don’t think Maeve actually thought that the plan to get Harry to off Mab was actually going to work. Mab recruited Harry & as Sarissa says, Mab has something on everybody (Harry’s broken back). Not to mention that Mab has been extremely interested in Harry for around a decade & has been actively steering him into fights he needs to fight. Maeve’s interactions with Harry have always been pointlessly unpleasant. Harry probably dislikes Maeve more than he does Mab since he at least respects the latter. I think Maeve says it to confuse Harry for long enough for her to attack Demonreach.
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Fair enough.
--- Quote ---Was Lea really able to fight it off? All we know is that Mab was able to take the athame as well as Harry’s debt to her & imprison her. Once she was imprisoned, she was able to resist. I don’t recall any evidence that Lea voluntarily went to Mab & asked her for help.
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I tend to think she could. She was certainly still helping Harry to stop Aurora after she got the Athame, and in Changes she said that shame drove her to seek her queen's aid, which certainly sounds like she asked Mab for help.
--- Quote ---I also see no evidence that Mab is as strong-willed as Harry. I think one of the reasons Harry wields Soulfire is because he is unique in this aspect. While I am sure Mab is quite strong willed herself, I’m not sure if it is enough to contain Nemesis to the extent you seem to think.
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Oh, I don't think she's as strong-willed as Harry. She could never do something like turning Nemesis to her side. But I do think she's in the same league as Harry, and that she could hold onto control long enough to bring the problem to Rashid or Mother Winter's attention, at which point they help her lock Nemesis away inside her mind.
--- Quote ---Her behavior towards Harry is geared toward getting him used to accepting her orders in a crude & intelligent way - the way Harry operates. She is also an absolute monarch & wants to remind Harry that is hers now. As she reminds him at the end of CD when he is furiously asking questions about her actions. “I am not YOUR Knight, you are MINE”. She is old thousand-plus years old, so her ideas of how her retinue should behave & be punished are somewhat archaic.
I don’t think she is misreading Harry at all. Harry has preconceived notions that Mab is wicked. Over time, as he gets more intertwined in her plans, he begins to respect her. Because of what she is (Fae), he can never trust her - Lea burned him too badly for that (on purpose perhaps?). Instead, she deals with him the way one does with an intelligent blunt instrument - crudely & without micromanagement. No one else in the books is able to consistently use/ manipulate Harry to achieve their own purposes as much as Mab.
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I guess I just expect her to be a better manipulator than she's shown herself to be with Harry. I mean, if I were Mab, here's what I would do:
1) I would never punish Harry for the way he spoke to me in private. It's not going to stop him being insulting, and it will make him hate me/Mab more. Also, it seems stupid to hurt him for being himself.
2) When I was helping him recover from being dead, in addition to trying to kill him every day, I would offer him some level of magical instruction to bring him up to the level he was at in Changes, only without needing his equipment.
3) I would work on getting him in shape quicker, so that he could be deployed against the Fomor ASAP. This would serve two purposes: it would damage and disrupt my/Mab's enemies, and it would be something that Harry would want to do anyway.
4) When the Fomor/Svaralf treaty problem came up, I would send Harry to fix the problem, telling him that his brother was being held there.
5) When dealing with the problem of Cold Case, I'd send Harry to rescue the kids, and just have someone else come by to take them away next week.
Essentially, if Mab wants Harry on her side, I think she should stop hurting him gratuitously, be marginally helpful, and give him jobs he wants to do. This is textbook manipulation--if you want someone to work for you, give them reasons why they want to and try to avoid giving them reasons to hate you. Some things that would help, Mab cannot do. She cannot be straightforward and explain things clearly to Harry. She cannot suddenly start being nice. She cannot start giving help away for free to Harry's allies. But there are things, as I've pointed out above, that she can do, and isn't. That's a problem if we're supposed to see her as a master manipulator, as we clearly are. When it comes to Harry, she's just not acting like one.
Maybe she has reason. But I haven't seen any in the books, so Nfection seems as good a reason as any other.
Cozarkian:
--- Quote from: kbrizzle on May 05, 2019, 04:32:18 AM ---I also see no evidence that Mab is as strong-willed as Harry. I think one of the reasons Harry wields Soulfire is because he is unique in this aspect. While I am sure Mab is quite strong willed herself, I’m not sure if it is enough to contain Nemesis to the extent you seem to think.
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Despite lacking free-will, Vadderung displays to Harry that he is strong enough to paralyze Harry with his will alone. Mab is stronger than Vadderung. There is very good reason to believe Mab could withstand Nemfection far better than Cat Sith and Leah, especially if Mab knew she would become Nfected when she saved Leah and had time to prepare defenses.
Ultimately, as demonstrated by Harry and Mother Winter, humans have free-will that is stronger than anything the supernatural entities can muster but as also demonstrated by Harry and Mother Winter (and Vadderung and the Red King), a human has to learn how to use free-will or the human will be weaker.
Cozarkian:
--- Quote from: nadia.skylark on May 05, 2019, 05:02:12 AM ---1) I would never punish Harry for the way he spoke to me in private. It's not going to stop him being insulting, and it will make him hate me/Mab more. Also, it seems stupid to hurt him for being himself.
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Probably, but Mab is confined by her nature and can only withstand so much insult before her pride compels her to act. If Harry, with free will, can't stop himself from being insulting most of the time, why would Mab, who lacks free will, be able to stop herself from taking revenge for insults?
--- Quote from: nadia.skylark on May 05, 2019, 05:02:12 AM ---2) When I was helping him recover from being dead, in addition to trying to kill him every day, I would offer him some level of magical instruction to bring him up to the level he was at in Changes, only without needing his equipment.
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She can't. She can't give him instruction without also demanding something in turn (and even if she could, she knows Harry would never accept). Trying to kill him is a loophole, she isn't giving him anything but if he survives, he gets stronger.
--- Quote from: nadia.skylark on May 05, 2019, 05:02:12 AM ---3) I would work on getting him in shape quicker, so that he could be deployed against the Fomor ASAP. This would serve two purposes: it would damage and disrupt my/Mab's enemies, and it would be something that Harry would want to do anyway.
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How is she going to do that? Again, there are limits on what she can do to help him and any attempt to help him would be met by resistance and suspicion that would likely slow Harry's progress, not hasten it.
--- Quote from: nadia.skylark on May 05, 2019, 05:02:12 AM ---4) When the Fomor/Svaralf treaty problem came up, I would send Harry to fix the problem, telling him that his brother was being held there.
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Wasn't this storyline while Harry was a ghost or at least still recovering?
--- Quote from: nadia.skylark on May 05, 2019, 05:02:12 AM ---
5) When dealing with the problem of Cold Case, I'd send Harry to rescue the kids, and just have someone else come by to take them away next week.
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And miss a perfectly good training opportunity for Molly? Also, Harry was stuck on Demonreach because of Bonnie at this time.
--- Quote from: nadia.skylark on May 05, 2019, 05:02:12 AM ---But there are things, as I've pointed out above, that she can do, and isn't. That's a problem if we're supposed to see her as a master manipulator, as we clearly are. When it comes to Harry, she's just not acting like one.
Maybe she has reason. But I haven't seen any in the books, so Nfection seems as good a reason as any other.
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1. I think you overstate what Mab can do. She can't just help Harry for free. She couldn't even just help Lea for free, and Lea is full fairy.
2. You are assuming Mab wants Harry to like her. Mab wants Harry to kill her eventually. She isn't trying to manipulate him into a long-term ally, she is trying to manipulate him into a short-term tool that will kill her in the long-term.
3. She seems like a pretty good manipulator to me. Summer Knight, Small Favor, Changes, Cold Days, Skin Game, she hasn't once failed to get what she really wants from Harry. Take a look at the end of Cold Days, after telling Harry he wouldn't survive long enough to pull the trigger (because her nature compelled her to do so) she explained to Harry reasons that he would accept to persuade him not to try. She knows exactly how to get what she wants from Harry, so if she isn't using optimum-manipulation strategy at all times, it is either because she is literally incapable of doing certain things, or she has a long-term agenda that wouldn't be served by strategies that appear at first glance to be superior.
nadia.skylark:
--- Quote ---Probably, but Mab is confined by her nature and can only withstand so much insult before her pride compels her to act. If Harry, with free will, can't stop himself from being insulting most of the time, why would Mab, who lacks free will, be able to stop herself from taking revenge for insults?
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Fair enough.
--- Quote ---She can't. She can't give him instruction without also demanding something in turn (and even if she could, she knows Harry would never accept). Trying to kill him is a loophole, she isn't giving him anything but if he survives, he gets stronger.
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Not true. She offered him magical instruction as part of the Winter Knight package in Small Favor.
--- Quote ---How is she going to do that? Again, there are limits on what she can do to help him and any attempt to help him would be met by resistance and suspicion that would likely slow Harry's progress, not hasten it.
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She's going to say: "Just because you dislike me doesn't mean that we don't have common enemies. Just as I was willing to allow the White Council to use my Ways against the Red Court, I am willing to allow you to go about causing general havoc to the Fomor in your own way, because it suits my purpose. Are you really willing to abandon your friends and allies to attack because of your distrust for me? I thought not."
--- Quote ---Wasn't this storyline while Harry was a ghost or at least still recovering?
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Recovering, and that's why I said she should work on getting him to recover faster. I don't believe that she had no control over the speed of his recovery, because he was recovered just in time to kill Maeve--the timing's just too precise to be coincidence.
--- Quote ---And miss a perfectly good training opportunity for Molly? Also, Harry was stuck on Demonreach because of Bonnie at this time.
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Maybe, but given that Maeve had a 150-year backlog, I feel like Molly probably had plenty of training opportunities, and saving a bunch of innocent kids is just perfect for getting Harry to work with you. And it only took place a few days after Cold Days, so I'm pretty sure Harry could still leave the island, even if there was some risk.
--- Quote ---I think you overstate what Mab can do. She can't just help Harry for free. She couldn't even just help Lea for free, and Lea is full fairy.
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And I think you understate what Mab could do in exchange for Harry being her Knight and taking her orders.
--- Quote ---You are assuming Mab wants Harry to like her. Mab wants Harry to kill her eventually. She isn't trying to manipulate him into a long-term ally, she is trying to manipulate him into a short-term tool that will kill her in the long-term.
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I am not assuming that Mab wants Harry to like her at all. I am, in fact, assuming that Mab wants to kill herself to prevent Nemesis from taking over, and that having a starborn on hand to help with that would be really useful. What I am claiming is that if Mab did not have reason to kill herself (ie was Nemesis infected) then she is being sloppy (because she is Nemesis infected). It's a Morton's fork argument--whatever path you chose, you end up at the same place.
--- Quote ---She seems like a pretty good manipulator to me. Summer Knight, Small Favor, Changes, Cold Days, Skin Game, she hasn't once failed to get what she really wants from Harry. Take a look at the end of Cold Days, after telling Harry he wouldn't survive long enough to pull the trigger (because her nature compelled her to do so) she explained to Harry reasons that he would accept to persuade him not to try.
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She may always get what she wants in the short term from Harry, but she also never fails to piss Harry off and make him hate her more. Personally, unless she is aiming to get Harry to kill her, this seems like poor long-term planning. Remember, Harry is not an astonishingly rational person. He may have logical reasons not to kill Mab, but there's a point beyond which that's not going to stop him.
--- Quote ---She knows exactly how to get what she wants from Harry, so if she isn't using optimum-manipulation strategy at all times, it is either because she is literally incapable of doing certain things, or she has a long-term agenda that wouldn't be served by strategies that appear at first glance to be superior.
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If she knows exactly how to get what she wants from Harry, then something is off. I can't believe that is isn't important to have a Knight that's loyal to Winter's interests, and she's not getting that. She is, in fact, encouraging Harry to fight her at every turn, and setting herself up to have to do the work of strong-arming him into doing every job she wants him to be involved in. Now, it's entirely possible that there's a pressing reason why having Harry fight her so consistently is important (ie she needs him to kill her to prevent Nemesis from taking over), but if that's not her aim, then she is messing up.
Cozarkian:
--- Quote from: nadia.skylark on May 06, 2019, 05:55:14 PM ---Not true. She offered him magical instruction as part of the Winter Knight package in Small Favor.
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And Harry rejected that offer. Did he request instruction in his counter-offer in Changes? If not, it isn't part of the deal.
--- Quote from: nadia.skylark on May 06, 2019, 05:55:14 PM ---She's going to say: "Just because you dislike me doesn't mean that we don't have common enemies. Just as I was willing to allow the White Council to use my Ways against the Red Court, I am willing to allow you to go about causing general havoc to the Fomor in your own way, because it suits my purpose. Are you really willing to abandon your friends and allies to attack because of your distrust for me? I thought not."
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A motivational speech is going to get Harry back into shape quicker? I don't think Harry was being a couch-potato. And if you motivate Harry to push himself too hard, that would delay his recovery.
--- Quote from: nadia.skylark on May 06, 2019, 05:55:14 PM ---Recovering, and that's why I said she should work on getting him to recover faster. I don't believe that she had no control over the speed of his recovery, because he was recovered just in time to kill Maeve--the timing's just too precise to be coincidence.
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You are right. Uriel put Harry back into his body with just enough time for him to recover to stop Maeve, and Mab pushed Harry to the limits to make sure he recovered in time by trying to kill him daily. A motivational speech was not going make Harry recover weeks sooner.
--- Quote from: nadia.skylark on May 06, 2019, 05:55:14 PM ---Maybe, but given that Maeve had a 150-year backlog, I feel like Molly probably had plenty of training opportunities, and saving a bunch of innocent kids is just perfect for getting Harry to work with you. And it only took place a few days after Cold Days, so I'm pretty sure Harry could still leave the island, even if there was some risk.
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Mab also wanted Molly to run into Ramirez. That was a double training opportunity.
--- Quote from: nadia.skylark on May 06, 2019, 05:55:14 PM ---I am not assuming that Mab wants Harry to like her at all. I am, in fact, assuming that Mab wants to kill herself to prevent Nemesis from taking over, and that having a starborn on hand to help with that would be really useful. What I am claiming is that if Mab did not have reason to kill herself (ie was Nemesis infected) then she is being sloppy (because she is Nemesis infected). It's a Morton's fork argument--whatever path you chose, you end up at the same place.
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Oh. It appears we are in agreement that Mab wants Harry to dislike her. I probably should have picked up on that since that is exactly what you said in the last sentence of your prior post. Sorry.
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