The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Mab is Nfected question
kbrizzle:
I still don’t think we see even circumstantial evidence that Mab has been Nfected. The only strange thing I can think that she does is to temporarily stop being able to modulate her voice for human consumption (& she does a lot of strange things).
My original point of if Mab is Nfected (even if she is able to contain it), why haven’t the Outsiders won still stands. If Fallen:Host is analogous to Nfection:Host, & Harry’s containment of Lash is the model we are using to describe how Mab is containing the Adversary, then Cold Days would have played out very differently.
In SmF, Nic commands Lash to paralyze Harry so he can kidnap the latter. Lash actually paralyzes Harry on her own in PG when he tries to use Little Chicago when she knows it’s not ready yet (showing that at least for short periods of time, the Fallen can overwhelm their host). In CD, we see that Nemesis is able to disable Cat Sith enough to simply take over (and Cat Sith is a very powerful Fae trying to fight it).
So why does Nfected Maeve need Harry to kill Mab? Nemesis can simply paralyze Mab for a few minutes while Maeve or her retainers kill Mab.
If Mab is too powerful for Nemesis to gain control for even a few seconds, I don’t see how it is much of a threat to Mab at all.
nadia.skylark:
--- Quote ---My original point of if Mab is Nfected (even if she is able to contain it), why haven’t the Outsiders won still stands. If Fallen:Host is analogous to Nfection:Host, & Harry’s containment of Lash is the model we are using to describe how Mab is containing the Adversary, then Cold Days would have played out very differently.
In SmF, Nic commands Lash to paralyze Harry so he can kidnap the latter. Lash actually paralyzes Harry on her own in PG when he tries to use Little Chicago when she knows it’s not ready yet (showing that at least for short periods of time, the Fallen can overwhelm their host). In CD, we see that Nemesis is able to disable Cat Sith enough to simply take over (and Cat Sith is a very powerful Fae trying to fight it).
So why does Nfected Maeve need Harry to kill Mab? Nemesis can simply paralyze Mab for a few minutes while Maeve or her retainers kill Mab.
--- End quote ---
First, I'm not convinced either that Lasciel's shadow could legitimately paralyze Harry or that Nemesis could paralyze Mab. We've seen Lasciel's shadow try to prevent Harry from acting in Proven Guilty, when she tried to stop him from using Little Chicago. And while she did manage to interfere with his effectiveness quite a lot, she did it not by paralyzing him, but by forcing the illusion of pain on him, which he could not fight off while also performing a complicated and dangerous ritual. Furthermore, Harry pointed out that he was perfectly capable of going through the ritual anyway, he would just be less effective, which would result in it blowing up in Harry's face. It would have been much more effective for Lasciel's shadow to paralyze him, if indeed she was capable of doing so.
I believe that the only way Lasciel's shadow could paralyze Harry would be to create an illusion cutting him off from all his senses, including prioproception. That would, indeed, likely have the effect of paralyzing him, but he could break through it easily by invoking the Sight. As for why Nic thought that this would work, I suspect he's just not used to dealing with wizards. The magic-users that he works with seem mostly to be sorcerer-level, and even Tessa probably only became as strong/skilled as she is over centuries or millennia. As such, he probably isn't used to accounting for things like the Sight, since most, if not all, of the magic-users he works with do not use it (I'm not convinced that either Tessa or Thorned Namshiel use the Sight--Tessa because she can probably rely on her Fallen for that kind of thing, and Thorned Namshiel because based on his name the Fallen is in full control there).
To summarize, I believe that Lasciel's shadow cannot simply paralyze Harry, only make him briefly less effective (if she tried it long-term, I believe Harry could block her out, as he has shown that he can do). I believe the same thing applies to Nemesis and Mab. And what do you know, Mab has seemed marginally less effective than I would expect from her. She covers it well, but things like only getting her revenge on the Red Court through something she could not possibly have anticipated and not teaching Harry magic that would make him more effective at carrying out her will (even though she offered to do just that) make me think that something is going on with her, although whether it's fighting Nfection or just being really super busy is up for debate.
Second, Nfected Maeve could have several reasons to try to get Harry to kill an Nfected Mab. One is that turning Mab's own weapon against her would be beating her at her own game, which is what Maeve explicitly is trying to do. Second is that if Harry weakens Mab in his attempt to kill her, it could give Nemesis a stronger hold. Third is that Harry attacking Mab would make it harder for Mab to interfere in her enemies' plans until she's dealt with the problem. Fourth is that convincing Harry to kill Mab would also convince Harry not to kill Maeve. Fifth is that Maeve is making this attempt in front of Lily, so she needs to keep up the charade of "Mab is Nfected and untrustworthy" since this appears to me to be one of the reasons why Lily is working with her. Sixth is that Harry is the Warden of Demonreach, so either getting him killed by convincing him to attack Mab or even just keeping him busy trying to figure out if it is necessary, and if so how to do it, would prevent or limit his ability to interfere with Maeve's plan to blow up his island.
kbrizzle:
@nadia
So let’s say you’re right & Lash couldn’t paralyze Harry but could only incapacitate him for a few moments and/or make him significantly less effective in the short-term. Wouldn’t this be just the opening Maeve needs to take out Mab? Maeve & her retainers (or she could call in the Walkers to help) are powerful enough that a temporarily weakened Mab is all they need to remove her (like a few minutes). Killing Mab would put Nfected Maeve on the throne, giving Nemesis exactly what it wants regardless of the other advantages you’ve listed.
Also remember how the Nfection deals with Cat Sith - it takes him out in seconds. Remember Rasmussen from DM who had been enslaved by his Fallen. Just because it didn’t work on Harry doesn’t mean Harry/Lash is an accurate model here - in fact JB goes out of his way to show how unusual the Harry/Lash situation is. As an immortal without much in the way of free-will, I’m not sure how well Mab would be able to oppose Nemesis.
Regarding Mab
Perhaps she is less effective from books 4-14 because she is operating without a Winter Knight (meaning her main tool for meddling in the mortal world is nonexistent) & without her top 2 lieutenants - Lea & Maeve. It also didn’t help that Nemesis’ latest salvo came from an angle she didn’t see - Aurora. That caused a massive chain reaction on the Summer side as well, leaving the Courts out of balance (Lily should never have become Lady).
However by the end of those 10 years, she got a Starborn as Winter Knight, healed Lea & replaced her old, neglecting her duties for 150 years Lady with one who is very capable instead. On the Summer side, Titania has calmed down somewhat, Fix has been trained to become an effective Knight & Sarissa (who has the right training) becomes Lady.
All the beings/ powers that screwed with her or her Accords have gotten a major reckoning - the Reds were obliterated in a battle that was fought by her Knight, Lady & #2 (even though Molly didn’t do much, the outside world will not see it as such). The Denarians who screwed with her have been left ruined or destroyed. It does not matter how much of this was explicitly planned by Mab - it happened because of how she had well she had prepared her resources/ allies/ forces (explained in her chess metaphor to Harry at the end of CD).
Regarding Nic
I don’t think that the Sight is restricted to those with White Council ability - I mean I’m not sure if Beckitt or Anna Ashe were able to use it, but I’m sure people at Snakeboy’s level are.
Nic could also have been wrong about Lash being able to paralyze Harry because he is a Starborn - he has an unusually strong sense of self & is stubborn to point of mule-headedness (Soulfire). We don’t know if that was wrong though since Lash had died - remember that no one knows of a mortal who has been able to resist a Shadow for as long as Harry did.
nadia.skylark:
--- Quote ---So let’s say you’re right & Lash couldn’t paralyze Harry but could only incapacitate him for a few moments and/or make him significantly less effective in the short-term. Wouldn’t this be just the opening Maeve needs to take out Mab? Maeve & her retainers (or she could call in the Walkers to help) are powerful enough that a temporarily weakened Mab is all they need to remove her (like a few minutes). Killing Mab would put Nfected Maeve on the throne, giving Nemesis exactly what it wants regardless of the other advantages you’ve listed.
--- End quote ---
It depends on how weakened she was. Mab is stronger than Maeve by an order of magnitude--if Maeve is power level 10 then Mab is power level 100. Even if Nemesis can cut Mab's strength in half, she's still way stronger than Maeve. And even if Maeve's allies can make up the difference, Mab can call on all of Winter given half a chance, and unless Nemesis can suppress something on the order of 90% of Mab's power, she's going to get that chance.
Mind you, this might be plan B, or plan C, D, or E, but it makes much more sense for plan A to be: let's throw someone we already want dead at Mab.
--- Quote ---Also remember how the Nfection deals with Cat Sith - it takes him out in seconds. Remember Rasmussen from DM who had been enslaved by his Fallen. Just because it didn’t work on Harry doesn’t mean Harry/Lash is an accurate model here - in fact JB goes out of his way to show how unusual the Harry/Lash situation is. As an immortal without much in the way of free-will, I’m not sure how well Mab would be able to oppose Nemesis.
--- End quote ---
Clearly Nemesis can be opposed by non-free willed beings, because Lea did so. And Mab seems to be strong-willed enough to be the Sidhe equivalent of Harry in that department. We don't know how from people he doesn't like (as opposed to maliciously subverting them on general principle). He may do things like bring Harry a warm coke, but he doesn't do things like delivering the coke via dumping it on Harry's head. This doesn't mean he isn't strong-willed--Harry will (usually) obey orders from the White Council, even if he doesn't like them much--but it's not a point in favor of him being particularly Nemesis-resistant, either. Mab, on the other hand, is Mab. That is to say, even when compromise would be useful to her, she doesn't use it. She does things like challenge Harry to fight her on Demonreach and slam his head into an elevator wall, even though Harry would be much more cooperative if she refrained from doing so and explained things, even if that explanation was just "I know I can't force you to act against your principles, and I'm not trying," rather than anything concrete. This, I feel, demonstrates the kind of stubbornness that would seem necessary to fighting off something like Nemesis.
Also note that I'm not claiming that Mab has had to fight off Nemesis for years alone--only long enough for someone like Mother Winter to give her some help with that.
--- Quote --- Perhaps she is less effective from books 4-14 because she is operating without a Winter Knight (meaning her main tool for meddling in the mortal world is nonexistent) & without her top 2 lieutenants - Lea & Maeve. It also didn’t help that Nemesis’ latest salvo came from an angle she didn’t see - Aurora. That caused a massive chain reaction on the Summer side as well, leaving the Courts out of balance (Lily should never have become Lady).
However by the end of those 10 years, she got a Starborn as Winter Knight, healed Lea & replaced her old, neglecting her duties for 150 years Lady with one who is very capable instead. On the Summer side, Titania has calmed down somewhat, Fix has been trained to become an effective Knight & Sarissa (who has the right training) becomes Lady.
All the beings/ powers that screwed with her or her Accords have gotten a major reckoning - the Reds were obliterated in a battle that was fought by her Knight, Lady & #2 (even though Molly didn’t do much, the outside world will not see it as such). The Denarians who screwed with her have been left ruined or destroyed. It does not matter how much of this was explicitly planned by Mab - it happened because of how she had well she had prepared her resources/ allies/ forces (explained in her chess metaphor to Harry at the end of CD).
--- End quote ---
I just feel like Mab has been using too much gambit roulette and not enough batman gambits, which would seem more her style. There could be many reasons for this, and one of them is Nemesis.
In particular, her handling of Harry is...odd. She probably couldn't ever get Harry to like her, but the way she handles him seems to actively encourage him to want her dead. So...either Mab is slipping, possibly from Nfection; or she wants Harry to kill her, probably because she's Nfected; or she's massively misreading Harry, probably by expecting him to be rational enough not to kill her no matter how much he wants to, which is a possibility.
--- Quote ---I don’t think that the Sight is restricted to those with White Council ability - I mean I’m not sure if Beckitt or Anna Ashe were able to use it, but I’m sure people at Snakeboy’s level are.
--- End quote ---
The RPG says that it's a wizard-power, not a sorcerer one. It's unclear whether Denarian sorcerers would have it--on the one hand, the Fallen offer far more training than sorcerers usually get, but on the other, I feel like the Fallen could do something similar for their hosts rather than teaching them, and they have reason to want their hosts to remain dependent on them.
I think that none of the Denarians have the Sight, because if they did then they would have used it to see through Ivy's veil at the Shedd, and they manifestly didn't do so.
kbrizzle:
@nadia
I don’t think Maeve actually thought that the plan to get Harry to off Mab was actually going to work. Mab recruited Harry & as Sarissa says, Mab has something on everybody (Harry’s broken back). Not to mention that Mab has been extremely interested in Harry for around a decade & has been actively steering him into fights he needs to fight. Maeve’s interactions with Harry have always been pointlessly unpleasant. Harry probably dislikes Maeve more than he does Mab since he at least respects the latter. I think Maeve says it to confuse Harry for long enough for her to attack Demonreach.
Was Lea really able to fight it off? All we know is that Mab was able to take the athame as well as Harry’s debt to her & imprison her. Once she was imprisoned, she was able to resist. I don’t recall any evidence that Lea voluntarily went to Mab & asked her for help.
I also see no evidence that Mab is as strong-willed as Harry. I think one of the reasons Harry wields Soulfire is because he is unique in this aspect. While I am sure Mab is quite strong willed herself, I’m not sure if it is enough to contain Nemesis to the extent you seem to think.
Her behavior towards Harry is geared toward getting him used to accepting her orders in a crude & intelligent way - the way Harry operates. She is also an absolute monarch & wants to remind Harry that is hers now. As she reminds him at the end of CD when he is furiously asking questions about her actions. “I am not YOUR Knight, you are MINE”. She is old thousand-plus years old, so her ideas of how her retinue should behave & be punished are somewhat archaic.
I don’t think she is misreading Harry at all. Harry has preconceived notions that Mab is wicked. Over time, as he gets more intertwined in her plans, he begins to respect her. Because of what she is (Fae), he can never trust her - Lea burned him too badly for that (on purpose perhaps?). Instead, she deals with him the way one does with an intelligent blunt instrument - crudely & without micromanagement. No one else in the books is able to consistently use/ manipulate Harry to achieve their own purposes as much as Mab.
You’re probably right about the Sight thing as I have never played the RPG. Although I’m pretty certain Ivy could veil herself even from the Sight - I’m sure Tessa would’ve been using her’s while looking for her in the Aquarium.
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