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Tsunami:
--- Quote from: Spyndel on January 11, 2009, 07:55:22 PM ---3) There is no *evidence* the Marat are a seafaring people. The only thing Kitai's lack of mentioned seasickness can really give reasonable evidence towards is the fact that Kitai continues to be "awesome".
--- End quote ---
Plus, in CaF, when they board the Slive for the first time, Kitai says "I have never been on a ship". Ok, neither has Tavi at this point, but the fact that Kitai ist the one to mention it might mean something.
There is no clear information about it. Although Jim's Description of Carna/Alera seems to point towards open water.
--- Quote ---The continent next door is linked to the one Alera is on via a land bridge which is where you find the Calderon Valley--
--- End quote ---
However, i like to imagine the Sea of Ice as an Inland Sea.
Spyndel:
OK, I did some rough sketches trying to work out the "problem area", and they show, what I believe are the three options to reconcile the inconclusive things so far about Marat /Icemen interaction, as detailed in my previous post here, as well as some random things I was curious about in this region. Bear in mind its just a rough idea of the landmasses involved for me to look at, not nearly as accurate as what Belgarion has done.
Sketch 1:
http://img172.imageshack.us/img172/8735/roughsketch1sy2.jpg
This is more or less the accepted vision so far with regard to Icemen/Marat connectivity, with two open bodies of water on either side of the isthmus. I just took my cues from Belgarion's current map. It's sound in regards to the map clues we have so far and the easiest to visualize, but it's unsatisfying conceptually because it doesn't leave us much beyond the notion of seafaring Marat to explain the evidence for Marat/Icemen interaction.
In addition to the various issues with this concept detailed here, it also calls into question the nature of the "Sea of Ice". Is that name whimsical, or does it have a more literal basis? Even if the marat were seafarers , could one actually sail across the "Sea of Ice"?
In addition, there were a few other issues I wondered about that I marked on the sketch:
A.)
--- Quote from: belgarion on November 24, 2008, 12:09:48 AM --- Also, there is a line in FoC where Amara flies over the Sea of Ice to get to the Calderon Valley from in-country. That's part of the reason that the Valley's shape looks like it is
--- End quote ---
I was unable to find this reference in FoC, but I don't doubt Belgarion's knowledge on the subject in any way, and I defer to him. If this is true though, even by Belgarion's current map, she really only could have flown over the Sea of Ice to Calderon if she was in the northernmost reaches of Alera. I don't know what "In country" means, but I didnt get the impression she was in the north of the region. If this is going to be a hard and fast stipulation, and we know for certain the northern watermass is the "Sea of Ice", then the isthmus/landbridge to the Marat landmass must be moved way, way down on the continental map, in order to stretch the Sea of Ice far enough across the west of the region that she could realistically fly over it.
B.) Many of the current maps seem to be placing Calderon right on the isthmus/landbridge to the Marat landmass, but in FOC, Amara describes the valley as being *beyond* the isthmus, into the new territoy itself...more of a frontier. This was one of the things I liked about Amadeus_rex's Calderon map, and followed suit here.
C.) Is there any issue with me switching the position of Phyridgia and Antillus? It would make certain things in PF easier to visualize if Antillus is the Shieldwall realm closest to both the Icemen AND the Marat...however the Marat and the Icemen manage to interact.
Sketch 2:
http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/2350/roughsketch2mo5.jpg
This is the most reasonable conceptual compromise based on what we know so far...some sort of land connection , probably near the polar region. This provides an option for a plausible means of Marat /Icemen interaction and avenue of travel for Doroga, without requiring us to believe one thing or another, until Jim let's us in on some more details.
This has the result of making the Sea of Ice an inland sea, which isnt a stretch at all. I mean, the entire Mediterranean is actually a landlocked sea with a number of isthmuses (is that the correct plural?) that, from the point of view of the inhabitants are connected only via that landbridge, canal, etc.
--- Quote ---The continent next door is linked to the one Alera is on via a land bridge which is where you find the Calderon Valley--
--- End quote ---
This quote, while easiest to interpret as an open sea scenario, does not *expressly forbid* a northern land connection, as the word "only" appears no where in the sentence. Of course, now we're into semantics. The truth of the matter is, I think it might be a case of a little bit of fuzzy thinking or incomplete explanation from the author. Or at least, I *hope* it is , because I find the alternatives ( (click to show/hide)the marat and their animals are seafarers and get their Icemen hair ropes and Doroga's reputation from naval trade/warfare across the sea of Ice, Doroga sailed with a giant Gargant on a boat to get to the Negotiations, or traveled through Alera unmolested, and was allowed, assisted over the shield wall by a xenophobic and defiant Rauccus) conceptually unsatisfying.
Sketch 3:
http://img74.imageshack.us/img74/2964/roughsketch3jn8.jpg
All sketch 3 really shows is a sort of contrived way to make sure all the pieces fit and adhere to the "letter of the law" in our current clues, and still provide a land connection. It basically shows a little strip of land walled off by mountain along the landbridge that the Marat and Icemen could conceivably interact on, while still keeping Calderon and Alera walled off, and keeping the sea open.
No, I don't like it either, but it was really just a mental exercise to see if it was possible.
Anyways, any correction or comments about my thinking would be welcome. I don't really *want* to be doing this...my limited time and brainpower would be better put towards illustrating the map, but these are just some sticking points for me. Im really hoping Belgarion puts together a post -PF map that I can just glom onto. I dont even want to try and decode the placement for all the southern regions. In the meantime, Im just working on the decorative map backround and graphical elements.
[P.S. I hope posting the images is cool. I used the img code and it seemed to be activated, so I figured it was ok. Its externally hosted, so there shouldn't be bandwidth issues as I understand it, but if this is a problem, just let me know and Ill edit them to links only]
belgarion:
Hi,
<<I was unable to find this reference in FoC, but I don't doubt Belgarion's knowledge on the subject in any way, and I defer to him. If this is true though, even by Belgarion's current map, she really only could have flown over the Sea of Ice to Calderon if she was in the northernmost reaches of Alera. I don't know what "In country" means, but I didnt get the impression she was in the north of the region. If this is going to be a hard and fast stipulation, and we know for certain the northern watermass is the "Sea of Ice", then the isthmus/landbridge to the Marat landmass must be moved way, way down on the continental map, in order to stretch the Sea of Ice far enough across the west of the region that she could realistically fly over it.>>
The passage is in AF. Sorry. Brain was fuzzy. Look at page 30 in the AF paperback (the beginning of chapter 3).
Originally we had Alera Imperia further north where it made sense for her to fly over the SOI to get to the valley. Now that Imperia was
moved further south, you're probably right about moving the landbridge south, except than we'd have to move Riva further south as well since Calderon is officially part of Riva. That changes the dynamics of the eastern coast somewhat.
<<Also, because of the nature of the events in PF, I'm tempted to switch the position of Antillus and Phrygia, to make Antillus the region closest to the Icemen AND the Marat and make some things easier to visualize, unless your superior knowledge on the subject can point out why this shouldnt be the case. I havent put a fraction of the effort and thought into this that you have, and I was frustrated to find when I wanted to do a map, there was no official layout.>>
No problem switching these two high lords. I actually don't remember the reason we put them in the current order.
Here's a modified map:
http://flickr.com/photos/21582563@N03/3194945097/ Map of Alera BW 01/13/09
If anyone else remembers why they are in that order please jump in.
I'm re-reading PF and will work on a PF map at the finish of the re-read.
Mikey
Priscellie:
--- Quote from: Spyndel on January 13, 2009, 10:28:53 PM ---Is there any issue with me switching the position of Phyridgia and Antillus? It would make certain things in PF easier to visualize if Antillus is the Shieldwall realm closest to both the Icemen AND the Marat...however the Marat and the Icemen manage to interact.
--- End quote ---
I went through the books, looking for mentions of both cities (REALLY annoying in the later books, considering the number of characters named Antillus. :D), and I found details that lent weight to both sides of the argument, but I think your point is the most compelling evidence we've seen for the relative locations of both cities.
Favoring Phrygia West of Antillus:
It might make sense for Phrygia to border Riva, as that's where Bernard's legion was sent during his tour. Of course, that doesn't have to mean anything. The Rivan legions could be sent anywhere. Doesn't have to be a neighboring land.
--- Quote ---"Younger sister," Bernard said. "She and Isana were real close. I was off on my first tour with the Rivan Legions. We were way up by the Shieldwall, working with Phrygias troops against the icemen. Our parents had died a few years before, and when Isana went into service in the Legion camps, Alia went with her."
--- End quote ---
Favoring Antillus West of Phrygia:
Both the Phrygians and the Ceresians are violently anti-slavery, and geographic proximity might contribute to that. And if Phrygia is closer to Ceres, it might explain why there's something of an abundance of them at the Elinarch, even though the Elinarch is to the extreme south of Ceres.
--- Quote --- Max pursed his lips, then shrugged. "Wasn't me. There are a lot of Phrygians hereabouts. They hate slavers. Crows, plenty of folk do. I hear that Ceres has a whole big gang of men in masks who roam around at night and hang any slaver they can get their hands on. They have to employ a whole army of personal guards to stay safe. Gotta love a town like Ceres."
--- End quote ---
And this could go either way, but I figured it was relevant:
--- Quote ---"So I'm Ehren," Max said, "with an unknown number of unknowns following me. Where do I go?" Max frowned. "Wait. What the crows am I doing all the way out here in the first place? I thought Ehren got sent to Phrygia."
"Did you notice that he packed those peppermints he kept around?" Tavi asked.
"Yes. I thought he liked peppermints."
"No. He gets seasick."
Max frowned. "But Phrygia's thousands of miles from the sea and—oh."
--- End quote ---
--- Quote from: Spyndel on January 13, 2009, 10:28:53 PM ---[P.S. I hope posting the images is cool. I used the img code and it seemed to be activated, so I figured it was ok. Its externally hosted, so there shouldn't be bandwidth issues as I understand it, but if this is a problem, just let me know and Ill edit them to links only]
--- End quote ---
Definitely cool! I prefer it this way.
Spyndel:
--- Quote from: Priscellie on January 14, 2009, 02:49:35 AM ---
Both the Phrygians and the Ceresians are violently anti-slavery, and geographic proximity might contribute to that. And if Phrygia is closer to Ceres, it might explain why there's something of an abundance of them at the Elinarch, even though the Elinarch is to the extreme south of Ceres.
--- End quote ---
That's true of the existing map, but doesn't that need to be examined in light of what you said here:
--- Quote from: Priscellie on January 11, 2009, 04:00:53 PM ---Well, Princeps' Fury makes it fairly clear that Ceres is the the southeast of Alera Imperia. Jim even lists it among the southern cities here. We might also have to move Aquitaine a little more northerly, as that doesn't make the list.
--- End quote ---
Theres very few ways I can envision to make Phrydgia and Ceres adjacent if that is true, and still satisfy all the other juggling that has to be done in that area, but I haven't sat down and tried to work it out on paper yet.
Also, if Ceres in in the Southeast, it screws all that up...not to mention confusing the entire issue of the Canim continent, since that's where they approach from.
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