The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
If the Denarians are trapped in Demonreach...
morriswalters:
--- Quote from: nadia.skylark ---I'd like to know why. That's one of the things about this that makes me so uncomfortable--why would TWG help arrange for Ivy to get tortured? (Obviously, free will was involved in a lot of this, but Harry also made the free willed decision to ask the Knights for help tracking down the Denarians without involving others--he only chose to make it an Accords issue when the Knights refused.)
--- End quote ---
The obvious answer is that it serves the narrative. However I assume you want it from inside the story. TWG didn't arrange to torture Ivy. Nicodemus and his cohorts did. The Knight's themselves can't quit being Knights because it is painful and inconvenient. And at the point of the conversation Ivy was not yet at hazard and no one was aware she was the target. You know the outcome but in the book they don't. Michael chose not to confront the Denarian's without the ability to give them a choice. Harry gave that to him and allowed Michael to hold his moral ground.
The timeline makes you keep track of not only what happened when, but when the protagonists knew what they could know. So it is only after the Shedd that everyone is aware of Ivy and her hazard.
nadia.skylark:
--- Quote ---The obvious answer is that it serves the narrative. However I assume you want it from inside the story.
--- End quote ---
Yes.
--- Quote ---TWG didn't arrange to torture Ivy. Nicodemus and his cohorts did.
--- End quote ---
Yeah, but he didn't arrange anything to stop her being tortured either, and you would think that it would be part of the Knights' job to interfere with stuff like that.
--- Quote ---The Knight's themselves can't quit being Knights because it is painful and inconvenient.
--- End quote ---
They don't have to quit being Knights. In Death Masks, the Knights were perfectly happy to engage in rescue missions: Shiro went and rescued Harry. Michael and Sanya went to try and rescue Shiro. Them going to rescue Marcone would not have violated their purpose as Knights.
--- Quote ---And at the point of the conversation Ivy was not yet at hazard and no one was aware she was the target. You know the outcome but in the book they don't.
--- End quote ---
TWG knows--He's supposed to be omniscient. Uriel really ought to know. I'm not assuming that anyone else does.
--- Quote ---Michael chose not to confront the Denarian's without the ability to give them a choice.
--- End quote ---
Why couldn't he give them a choice? Why couldn't Michael and Sanya find the Denarians, knock their door down, and demand that they give up their coins and tell him where Marcone is? This is, after all, exactly what Michael and Sanya did do with Cassius in Death Masks--why not now?
--- Quote ---Harry gave that to him and allowed Michael to hold his moral ground.
--- End quote ---
Yes. However, given that Michael's moral ground apparently requires him to not try to rescue someone who he knows is being tortured, I don't actually think that this is a good thing.
--- Quote ---The timeline makes you keep track of not only what happened when, but when the protagonists knew what they could know.
--- End quote ---
Yes. At the point where the Knights refuse to go looking for the Denarians, they know that a person is being tortured, that Harry has given up Lasciel's coin, and that he has stated that he never took up the coin and yet got rid of the shadow.
--- Quote ---So it is only after the Shedd that everyone is aware of Ivy and her hazard.
--- End quote ---
I've only ever brought Ivy up as a consideration before this point in terms of what TWG knows, since I don't really see Him not knowing about Ivy.
morriswalters:
--- Quote ---Yeah, but he didn't arrange anything to stop her being tortured either, and you would think that it would be part of the Knights' job to interfere with stuff like that.
--- End quote ---
This is pointless. We've covered this ground multiple times. I'm done.
nadia.skylark:
--- Quote ---This is pointless. We've covered this ground multiple times. I'm done.
--- End quote ---
Okay?
I am under the impression that the Knights' job is to "rescue the poor souls trapped by the Fallen" in Michael's words. I also believe that their secondary purpose is to protect the innocent as directed to by TWG, as evidenced by the many times we see them do that.
In Small Favor, we see the Knights both actively refuse to rescue a soul from being trapped by the Fallen and act in such a way that it appears they are not being directed to act such that it would protect an innocent from being tortured.
I assume I am missing something here, because this seems inexplicable to me. I had hoped that discussion would allow me to realize what I was missing, but I'm apparently also missing something in your posts...
morriswalters:
--- Quote ---I assume I am missing something here, because this seems inexplicable to me. I had hoped that discussion would allow me to realize what I was missing, but I'm apparently also missing something in your posts...
--- End quote ---
I have no idea. I just know that I don't have the answers you're seeking.
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