The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
If the Denarians are trapped in Demonreach...
morriswalters:
I apologize for being insulting. In so far as the text indicates no one has been put into stasis since Demonreach was built and originally inhabited. There is no good reason to put a fallen inside the fence. Why would you take the chance? And if you did, a Knight attempting a breakout would trigger the fail safe. I believe that covers your original question. As to your current argument I find myself clueless. However I did respond to some of your points, I spoilered it because it is mostly a rehash of things I've already said. And we are apparently in a similar timezone.
(click to show/hide)I gave you a direct quote from Mab about Titania. I really don't know how to make it clearer. I didn't say that Titania knew of the events in the alley. I qualified the why as speculative. Since the why was speculative I didn't bother with the how. However possibly by the same mechanism that Mab employed on the attack on Marcone's panic room. Your guess is as good as mine.
I'll repeat, Harry said he couldn't track them. Had TWG given Michael the heads up I fairly certain that Michael wouldn't have needed Harry or that Michael would have ignored the call, so I guess TWG was hanging back. Uriel was hanging at the Shedd giving out keys to soulfire. And we never see Toot after the first call. Who knows why?
One sign of trust is when you listen to your heart instead of the little seed of doubt, so I guess in my mind that it was the third act after the Shedd that the seedling burst from its husk. Certainly Michael followed Harry's lead at the Shedd and raked in the coins. You are welcome to differ.
nadia.skylark:
--- Quote ---In so far as the text indicates no one has been put into stasis since Demonreach was built and originally inhabited.
--- End quote ---
Good point.
--- Quote ---There is no good reason to put a fallen inside the fence. Why would you take the chance?
--- End quote ---
Because the Church is corrupt and the Coins need to be stored somewhere secure.
--- Quote ---And if you did, a Knight attempting a breakout would trigger the fail safe.
--- End quote ---
Meh, I feel like TWG could get around this.
--- Quote ---I gave you a direct quote from Mab about Titania. I really don't know how to make it clearer.
--- End quote ---
I guess we just interpreted this quote differently. I had thought Mab's "put simply" meant that it was a Summer/Winter thing--Winter was trying to save him, so by default he was Titania's enemy.
--- Quote ---I didn't say that Titania knew of the events in the alley. I qualified the why as speculative. Since the why was speculative I didn't bother with the how. However possibly by the same mechanism that Mab employed on the attack on Marcone's panic room. Your guess is as good as mine.
--- End quote ---
Fair enough.
--- Quote ---I'll repeat, Harry said he couldn't track them.
--- End quote ---
I'm not sure Harry knew that at this point. (Also, I'm still not sure why Harry couldn't find them even if his tracking spells weren't working--none of the Denarians' precautions seems to have extended to something that would stop determined pixies, and we know that Harry has used the Za Lord's Guard for searches in other books. But I suspect that this is just a plot hole.)
--- Quote ---Had TWG given Michael the heads up I fairly certain that Michael wouldn't have needed Harry or that Michael would have ignored the call, so I guess TWG was hanging back. Uriel was hanging at the Shedd giving out keys to soulfire. And we never see Toot after the first call. Who knows why?
--- End quote ---
I'd like to know why. That's one of the things about this that makes me so uncomfortable--why would TWG help arrange for Ivy to get tortured? (Obviously, free will was involved in a lot of this, but Harry also made the free willed decision to ask the Knights for help tracking down the Denarians without involving others--he only chose to make it an Accords issue when the Knights refused.)
--- Quote ---One sign of trust is when you listen to your heart instead of the little seed of doubt, so I guess in my mind that it was the third act after the Shedd that the seedling burst from its husk.
--- End quote ---
I agree about the trust thing--I just think that Michael was listening to his doubts rather than his heart when he refused to help track down the Denarians (or he was listening to TWG, but like I said above, that just brings up another problem).
--- Quote ---Certainly Michael followed Harry's lead at the Shedd and raked in the coins. You are welcome to differ.
--- End quote ---
I'm not sure how much lead-following was involved there--Harry was mostly unconscious or elsewhere for the parts that Michael was involved in, and Coin collecting is the Knights' job.
Note: I know it can come across like I hate the Knights or want to think badly of them. I don't; I actually really like them and want to think well of them--that's why it's so disturbing to me when they appear to be acting problematically. If I didn't care about them being the good guys, I wouldn't bother discussing things like this.
Avernite:
--- Quote from: nadia.skylark on March 22, 2019, 03:30:22 PM ---Are we sure about this? I mean, it's one thing if the Denarians are actively doing something horrible, but if the Knights ran into one of them on vacation or something, would they be permitted to try to kill the Denarian even if he/she refused to give up the Coin? I mean, Michael spent 3-ish years thinking that Harry had taken up Lasciel's coin, but didn't do anything about it until Harry actively approached him.
--- End quote ---
IMO that falls under the prime directive (IF possible, save coin holders), where Michael was undoubtedly subtly trying to influence Harry into taking the right path. While Harry wasn't doing any bad things, Harry was out of the crosshairs for a fight. But for those coin holders who have clearly gone off the reservation, I think the Knights could confront them even in their off hours - they would still not open with a random stab to the heart, but they could go 'Hey Nic, fancy meeting you here. Please give up your coin!' and things would devolve from there.
nadia.skylark:
--- Quote ---But for those coin holders who have clearly gone off the reservation, I think the Knights could confront them even in their off hours - they would still not open with a random stab to the heart, but they could go 'Hey Nic, fancy meeting you here. Please give up your coin!' and things would devolve from there.
--- End quote ---
I've no doubt that if they ran into Nic on vacation, they would try to talk him into giving up his coin. The question I have is, if his response was to say "No, and I'm leaving" rather than try to attack them/any bystanders, could the Knights then attack him? Or if they found a Denarian frozen in Mab's garden and therefore unable either to cause trouble or repent, would that be a problem for them?
Mira:
--- Quote from: peregrine on March 23, 2019, 01:38:59 AM ---Though (and again, this is taking Nic at his word) they get MOST of their coins back via corruption in the Church, but not all. We don't know how the other ones get out, it's possible that, like their ability to roll a bit on their own, to encourage people to pick a coin up, they might be able to somehow move themselves. Otherwise dropping it in a box, covering the box with concrete and anti-summoning magic, and then tossing it in the ocean would be enough.
It also occurs to me that DemonReach is not a perfect prison. Energy can leak out, the prisoners are at least somewhat aware and somewhat able to reach out of their cells, since they can communicate. A coin in DR plus a prisoner of DR could lead to some very bad things. Like taking advantage of the security of a max security prison by also using it to store nuclear weapons.
--- End quote ---
I think corruption in the Church is part of the answer, the coins as you say present themselves as too much of a temptation... At the end of Skin Game Michael asks Harry if he is going to turn the artifacts over to the Church... Harry answers, "nope." Michael thinks for a second or two and then agrees with him.. The only reason why he would is he also thinks there is corruption in his beloved Church,
I don't think it is safe even to toss them into the ocean, they'd find their way back on shore somehow even if it is a fish consuming one and some unsuspecting fisherman coming in contact... Not unlike the One Ring.
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