The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
If the Denarians are trapped in Demonreach...
peregrine:
Though (and again, this is taking Nic at his word) they get MOST of their coins back via corruption in the Church, but not all. We don't know how the other ones get out, it's possible that, like their ability to roll a bit on their own, to encourage people to pick a coin up, they might be able to somehow move themselves. Otherwise dropping it in a box, covering the box with concrete and anti-summoning magic, and then tossing it in the ocean would be enough.
It also occurs to me that DemonReach is not a perfect prison. Energy can leak out, the prisoners are at least somewhat aware and somewhat able to reach out of their cells, since they can communicate. A coin in DR plus a prisoner of DR could lead to some very bad things. Like taking advantage of the security of a max security prison by also using it to store nuclear weapons.
morriswalters:
Everyone who keeps suggesting putting the coins in Demonreach should answer the question, where did Merlin get the advanced magic needed to build the prison?
Nobody realizes that the Archive was the target until after the Shedd was closed in the magic circle. And nobody knew there were at least thirteen Denarian's in town. With two notable exceptions. Mab and Uriel. And they weren't talking for whatever reasons. Can you see why Michael wasn't instructed by TWG to attack?
Nobody forgot Marcone. He was the key which started the game clock.
Without Harry's help the Knight's didn't have a chance in hell of doing anything, they aren't suicidal. See where there were 13 Denarian's in town.
Michael's suspicion of Harry was from Harry acting out of character in not using fire spells.
Marcone was bait and a payoff to Titania.
The Archive was the target and as such Uriel was on the playing field in the Shedd.
The rules of the game kept Michael out of the Shedd, had he been there the Denarian's wouldn't have been.
Everything played out in the way you would expect. The Hobs were the first cutout, designed to kill Ivy, the second cutout was Uriel in the Shedd to help Harry if things went sideways. With all the pieces in place the assault happened in the safest place, on Demonreach Island where all the participants could go all out.
nadia.skylark:
--- Quote ---Nobody realizes that the Archive was the target until after the Shedd was closed in the magic circle. And nobody knew there were at least thirteen Denarian's in town. With two notable exceptions. Mab and Uriel. And they weren't talking for whatever reasons. Can you see why Michael wasn't instructed by TWG to attack?
--- End quote ---
No. Not unless TWG wanted Ivy to be tortured, because if Michael had been proactive when Harry asked him to, then Ivy would never have even been in Chicago.
--- Quote ---Nobody forgot Marcone. He was the key which started the game clock.
--- End quote ---
If nobody forgot him, then why was the fact that he was being tortured not brought up as an argument for why Michael and Sanya should hunt down the Denarians in town?
--- Quote ---Without Harry's help the Knight's didn't have a chance in hell of doing anything, they aren't suicidal. See where there were 13 Denarian's in town.
--- End quote ---
They would have had Harry's help. Harry was the one asking for their help in the first place!
--- Quote ---Michael's suspicion of Harry was from Harry acting out of character in not using fire spells.
--- End quote ---
Correct me if I'm wrong, but as I remember it, between the time Mab took away Harry's blasting rod and the time Harry asked Michael to hat up and go Denarian hunting, there had been no reason for Harry to use fire magic around Michael because all Harry had done in Michael's presence was drive up to his house and talk to him in his kitchen.
--- Quote ---Marcone was bait
--- End quote ---
Yes.
--- Quote ---and a payoff to Titania.
--- End quote ---
What? Why does Titania care about Marcone?
--- Quote ---The Archive was the target and as such Uriel was on the playing field in the Shedd.
--- End quote ---
Yes.
--- Quote ---The rules of the game kept Michael out of the Shedd, had he been there the Denarian's wouldn't have been.
--- End quote ---
I'm not talking about the Shedd; I'm talking about before Harry even calls the White Council over the Accords breach.
--- Quote ---Everything played out in the way you would expect. The Hobs were the first cutout, designed to kill Ivy, the second cutout was Uriel in the Shedd to help Harry if things went sideways. With all the pieces in place the assault happened in the safest place, on Demonreach Island where all the participants could go all out.
--- End quote ---
But why couldn't everyone have tried to find the Denarians at Demonreach before Ivy was kidnapped?
morriswalters:
--- Quote ---No. Not unless TWG wanted Ivy to be tortured, because if Michael had been proactive when Harry asked him to, then Ivy would never have even been in Chicago.
--- End quote ---
Michael's first appearance in the book is after Titania's hitters attack Harry at Michael's house. The Denarian's don't show up until Harry finds Gard at the safe house. At that point no one knows were the Denarian's are. Contact is made through Ivy after the Accords protocol is invoked.
--- Quote ---If nobody forgot him, then why was the fact that he was being tortured not brought up as an argument for why Michael and Sanya should hunt down the Denarians in town?
--- End quote ---
At that point there is nobody to search for other than Marcone.
--- Quote ---Correct me if I'm wrong, but as I remember it, between the time Mab took away Harry's blasting rod and the time Harry asked Michael to hat up and go Denarian hunting, there had been no reason for Harry to use fire magic around Michael because all Harry had done in Michael's presence was drive up to his house and talk to him in his kitchen.
--- End quote ---
Michael's suspicions come into play after the events at the Shedd. Nic uses them to play on Harry's mind. And Harry did not use fire magic at the Train Station while with Michael.
--- Quote ---What? Why does Titania care about Marcone?
--- End quote ---
Read the book. Had you, you would know that she did.
--- Quote from: Small Favor ---“When one Court moves, the other perforce moves with it,” Mab said.
I croaked, “Titania wants Marcone dead?”
“Put simply,” she replied. “And her Emissary will continue to seek your death. Only by finding and saving the Baron’s life will you preserve your own.”
--- End quote ---
The why is speculative. She hates Harry. The most obvious reason might be that she took revenge on Marcone for saving Harry behind Bock's Books. Gard warns Marcone then. As a bonus she knows Harry will be appointed Emissary for Mab, which gives her a reason to strike at Harry.
--- Quote ---I'm not talking about the Shedd; I'm talking about before Harry even calls the White Council over the Accords breach.
--- End quote ---
Again at no time is anyone aware of the location of the Denarian's until Ivy arrives.
--- Quote ---But why couldn't everyone have tried to find the Denarians at Demonreach before Ivy was kidnapped?
--- End quote ---
Demonreach is first introduced in Small Favor. Why would they look there?
You don't seem to understand the timeline of events. For instance they hold a council of war after dropping Gard off and discuss how to find the Nickleheads. And are attacked on the way back to Michael's house by Torelli's people. At which point they go to the Train Station.
nadia.skylark:
--- Quote ---Michael's first appearance in the book is after Titania's hitters attack Harry at Michael's house. The Denarian's don't show up until Harry finds Gard at the safe house. At that point no one knows were the Denarian's are. Contact is made through Ivy after the Accords protocol is invoked.
--- End quote ---
The timeline goes:
-Harry is attacked by Gruffs at Michael's house.
-Harry meets Mab and loses his fire magic.
-Harry finds Gard wounded and discovers that the Denarians are involved.
-Harry goes to Michael's house and asks him to help track down the Denarians.
-Michael refuses, so Harry initiates Accords protocols.
At no point, from the time Harry loses access to his fire magic to the time Michael refuses to hunt down the Denarians, does Harry have any reason whatsoever to use his fire magic in front of Michael.
--- Quote ---At that point there is nobody to search for other than Marcone.
--- End quote ---
Given that my question is "why won't the Knights agree to hunt down the Denarians for the purpose of searching for and rescuing Marcone?" I'm really not sure what the point of this statement is.
--- Quote ---Michael's suspicions come into play after the events at the Shedd. Nic uses them to play on Harry's mind. And Harry did not use fire magic at the Train Station while with Michael.
--- End quote ---
No. Here's the quotes:
Small Favor ch. 15
--- Quote ---"So," I said, "I think we've got to move fast, and get Marcone away from them before he's forced to join up."
Michael frowned and folded his broad, work-scarred hands on the table before him. "What makes you think he's going to tell them no?"
"Marcone's scum," I said. "But he's his own scum. He doesn't work for anyone."
...
"Guys," I said, "I know that your first instincts tend to be to stand watch against the night, turning the other cheek, and so on. But he's here with maybe twice the demon-power he had on his last visit. If we wait for him to come to us, he'll tear us apart."
"Agreed," Sanya said firmly. "Take the initiative. Find him and hit the snake before he can coil to strike."
Michael shook his head. "Brother, you forget our purpose. We are not given our power so that we can strike down our enemies, no matter how much they might deserve it. Our purpose is to rescue the poor souls trapped by the Fallen."
...
Michael smiled, but it was brief and strained. "My point is that we can undertake such an aggressive move in only the direst of circumstances."
"Faerie stands poised on the brink of an internal war," I said. "Which would probably reignite the war between the Council and the Vampire Courts--and in the bad guys' favor, I might add. One of the most dangerous men I've ever known is about to have involuntary access to the knowledge and power of a Fallen angel, which would give the Denarians access to major influence within the United States. Not to mention the serious personal consequences for me if they succeed in making it happen." I looked back and forth between the two Knights, and held up one hand straight over my head. "I vote dire. All in favor?"
Michael caught Sanya's hand on the way up, and pushed it gently back down to the table. "This isn't a democracy, Harry. We serve a King."
--- End quote ---
ch. 38
--- Quote ---"That's the real reason you didn't want to hat up and go gunning for the Denarians right at first, the way I wanted to. You were worried I was leading you into a trap."
"I didn't lie to you, Harry." Michael said. "But I'd be lying right now if I didn't admit that, yes, the thought had crossed my mind."
--- End quote ---
These quotes demonstrate that Michael started distrusting Harry before the fire magic thing gave him a reason.
(Also, I take back what I said about the Marcone thing not being brought up. Apparently it was brought up, the Knights just...disregarded it. What the hell?)
--- Quote ---Read the book. Had you, you would know that she did.
--- End quote ---
Be less insulting. I have read all the books multiple times, and it was my understanding in Small Favor that Titania's interest in the situation was that she was countering Winter and trying to get revenge on Harry. I read nothing that indicated to me that she cared about Marcone in particular.
--- Quote ---The why is speculative. She hates Harry. The most obvious reason might be that she took revenge on Marcone for saving Harry behind Bock's Books. Gard warns Marcone then. As a bonus she knows Harry will be appointed Emissary for Mab, which gives her a reason to strike at Harry.
--- End quote ---
This might be a reason. Was there anything is Small Favor to indicate that Titania knew about Marcone saving Harry?
--- Quote ---Again at no time is anyone aware of the location of the Denarian's until Ivy arrives.
--- End quote ---
Sorry, I phrased this poorly. What I meant was that they could have gone looking for the Denarians before Ivy got involved, and since I am of the belief that they were already on Demonreach at the time (they had to transport the stuff and do the setup for the circle after all, and it would make sense to get as much as possible done before they captured Ivy) there was no reason for TWG to be worried about collateral damage if they found them.
--- Quote ---Demonreach is first introduced in Small Favor. Why would they look there?
--- End quote ---
Because TWG told them to, because Harry sent a bunch of pixies to look everywhere, because someone worked out that they'd need access to a Ley line to put up defenses good enough to baffle everyone's tracking spells (I'm not sure if this is true or not)--any number of reasons. The point is that they should have been looking.
--- Quote ---You don't seem to understand the timeline of events. For instance they hold a council of war after dropping Gard off and discuss how to find the Nickleheads. And are attacked on the way back to Michael's house by Torelli's people. At which point they go to the Train Station.
--- End quote ---
I understand the timeline just fine. It's you that seems to be confused. You seem to think that I'm arguing...something other than what I'm arguing. I'm not sure what.
What do you think I'm saying? (Apologies if I'm missing something obvious in what you're saying. It's 2am here.)
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