The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
If the Denarians are trapped in Demonreach...
peregrine:
--- Quote from: nadia.skylark on March 22, 2019, 11:18:43 PM ---That can't possibly be the issue. In the same book, Harry notes that Michael has no problem killing enemies from behind when needed.
I don't have my copy of the book right now, but I'll have access to it later tonight and will post a quote of the section under discussion (if someone wants to post it earlier, that would be awesome).
When do we ever see them be proactive?
--- End quote ---
They travel around the world to do their job. They may not have a hit list they're working through, but it's not like it's a coincidence Shiro and Sanya show up to do Knightly things despite not living in Chicago. Or hell, Susan and Murphy went out explicitly to fight some bad guys in Mexico, and the Swords didn't sulk about it. The point is, they don't just have to wait for the Denarians to come to them.
As for letting them go, I'd say there's a fundamental difference between an ex-Denarian who gave up his coin, and an ex-Denarian who gave up his coin, but is also holding a gun to the head of a civilian and about to pull the trigger. You think the Knights are going to just stand by and let them take the shot? I'd argue that there's still a "protect the innocent" thing that applies, even if the redeeming Denarians aspect is off. Like every other thing we see the Knights doing that doesn't involve the Denarians.
nadia.skylark:
--- Quote ---They travel around the world to do their job. They may not have a hit list they're working through, but it's not like it's a coincidence Shiro and Sanya show up to do Knightly things despite not living in Chicago. Or hell, Susan and Murphy went out explicitly to fight some bad guys in Mexico, and the Swords didn't sulk about it. The point is, they don't just have to wait for the Denarians to come to them.
--- End quote ---
Good point. Let me rephrase: when do we ever see the Knights do anything proactive, not counting times when their traveling results in them "coincidentally" walking right into the middle of a situation, that Harry does not prod them into doing?
And if they do go after Denarians proactively, why was Michael so willing to let a guy get tortured rather than try to track the Denarians torturing him down?
I swear, every time I resolve one issue I have with Michael, another one comes up. For an uncomplicatedly good guy, I seem to notice a lot of stuff about him that is problematic.
morriswalters:
--- Quote from: nadia.skylark ---That can't possibly be the issue. In the same book, Harry notes that Michael has no problem killing enemies from behind when needed.
--- End quote ---
This is Michael's objection to Harry's plan. In terms of how and when the Knight's act it is often communicated to them in some fashion. This is discussed over and over again in the books. Michael and the other Knight's are where they need to be when they are needed. They work for a god.
--- Quote ---“This isn’t a democracy, Harry. We serve a King.”
Sanya frowned for a moment, glancing at me. But then he settled back in his chair, a silent statement of support for Michael.
“You want to talk to them?” I asked Michael. “You’ve got to be kidding me.”
“I didn’t say that,” Michael replied. “But I will not set out to simply murder them and have done. It’s a solution, Harry. But it isn’t good enough.”
--- End quote ---
You need to make a distinction between killing by surprise in combat and killing without warning. In the initial introduction to Shiro, Michael attacks by surprise from a fire escape.
--- Quote ---"So it ends, Knight," purred the smooth, demon-voice of Ursiel.
"Hai," the old man agreed quietly. He looked up above him, at a fire escape platform ten feet off the ground.
A shadowed figure dropped over the rail of the platform, steel rasping as it did. There was a low thrum of power, a flash of silver, and the hiss of a blade cutting the air. The shadowy figure landed in a crouch beside the creature.
The demon Ursiel jerked once, body stiffening. There was a thump.
Then its body toppled slowly over to one side, leaving its monstrous head lying on the alley floor. The light died from its four eyes.
The third Knight rose away from the demon's corpse. Tall and broad-shouldered, his close-cut hair dark and feathered with silver, Michael Carpenter snapped the blade of his broad sword, Amoracchius, to one side, clearing droplets of blood from it. He put it back into its sheath, staring down at the fallen demon, and shook his head.
--- End quote ---
nadia.skylark:
--- Quote ---This is Michael's objection to Harry's plan. In terms of how and when the Knight's act it is often communicated to them in some fashion. This is discussed over and over again in the books. Michael and the other Knight's are where they need to be when they are needed. They work for a god.
--- End quote ---
...and Sanya's plane being "coincidentally" delayed wasn't enough of a sign for them? (Thanks for the quote, by the way.) The more I think about this scene, the more issues I have with it. Possibilities for why it played out the way it did that I can see are:
1) Michael distrusts Harry (which he admitted) ... and yet goes along with Harry's second plan rather than waiting for him to leave before planning a rescue mission with Sanya.
2) Michael objects to Harry's plan, but still trusts him enough to let him lie to the White Council (which it has been pointed out to me is out of character, and furthermore Michael admits later in the book to thinking Harry has been subverted by Lasciel).
3) Michael doesn't think they should interfere, despite "coincidence" indicating that TWG wants them to, but can't let Harry face the Denarians alone (the former part seems highly problematic; the latter part has canon support).
4) TWG has indicated to Michael that he should not go after the Denarians directly despite the fact that it would be a rescue mission, but has not expressed an objection to Harry's second plan (which...did He want Ivy to be tortured? Was it some twisted way to see to it that Ivy would get more free will than she would otherwise have with the Archive? Is getting Harry access to soulfire that important? What?)
5) No one cares about Marcone. The Knights are only responsible for rescuing innocents (possible. In Skin Game, Michael says he can't help Hannah at the Gate of Fire because she's not an innocent, that she chose to put herself in danger. On the other hand, the Knights' explicit job is to save the Denarian hosts from the Fallen, so they can't only be interested in innocents).
6) Everyone spontaneously, inexplicably forgot about Marcone (which seems poor writing--there ought to be a reason).
All of these, to my mind, are problematic. (Another possibility is that Harry never told the Knights about Marcone--I don't remember whether he did or not--which is still problematic, but is not a problem for Michael, it's just Harry being inexplicably more idiotic than usual.)
Snark Knight:
--- Quote from: KurtinStGeorge on March 22, 2019, 08:52:02 AM ---Another way to think about it is Alfred might have rules about who can be locked up on the island and who can't, and under what circumstances the island is allowed to lock up a supernatural entity. For a variety of reasons the Denarians, or just the Fallen trapped in the coin, might not apply. We know the island has a lot of dangerous supernatural prisoners, but we don't know how they earned their prison sentence.
--- End quote ---
I'm not talking about encasing them in one of the actual green crystal cells. Just using the underground chambers as a place to put some of the blessed boxes that block the others from summoning a downed coin.
It's not qualitatively different than the monasteries where the church hides them. There are just quantitatively a lot fewer people around to be tempted to open the boxes.
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