The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Can Hellfire be used without a Coin?
Avernite:
--- Quote from: Yuillegan on February 22, 2019, 04:04:02 AM ---The frustrating thing with the later books is Jim took the soft approach - the dumbo's feather approach - on a lot of his power ups. In Skin Games Harry talks about how Lasciel isn't making Hannah Ascher any more powerful really, she just stirs up her passion (which Fire magic comes from) which makes Hannah think she is more powerful.
Same with the pretty weak explanation from Butters about how the Winter Mantle doesn't make Harry any stronger really, it just dulls his pain and gives him more access to his more primal self and makes it more easy to use Ice magic.
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To be honest, I just took these to be delusion. Hellfire made Harry's magic hit harder, and the Winter Mantle really DOES make Harry stronger.
Butters just doesn't really believe it, and his denigration of the Winter Mantle helps Harry feel more like a dummy being abused by Mab and his own bad choices, which is all but a hobby of his. So Harry tries to believe it too, and as a result thinks Hannah is also duped.
I mean, Harry ran on super-slippery ice, and jumped, and whatnot. He did things that are normally physically impossible... and all without digging very deep into his Mantle, after about 1 year of practice. Imagine a Knight none too worried about his soul pushing the Mantle to its limits for a decade.
segaily:
--- Quote from: Avernite on February 22, 2019, 06:42:19 PM ---To be honest, I just took these to be delusion. Hellfire made Harry's magic hit harder, and the Winter Mantle really DOES make Harry stronger.
Butters just doesn't really believe it, and his denigration of the Winter Mantle helps Harry feel more like a dummy being abused by Mab and his own bad choices, which is all but a hobby of his. So Harry tries to believe it too, and as a result thinks Hannah is also duped.
I mean, Harry ran on super-slippery ice, and jumped, and whatnot. He did things that are normally physically impossible... and all without digging very deep into his Mantle, after about 1 year of practice. Imagine a Knight none too worried about his soul pushing the Mantle to its limits for a decade.
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I have always felt this way too. While the mantle might not do much if anything to protect Harry from injury it clearly does give some boosts. Hard to say how much is just belief and how much is real. I think Butters is right in that Harry needs to be very careful to not hurt himself but that does not mean Harry is getting nothing from the mantle. Butter's does not trust it so he thinks the worst instead of thinking he could be right about it even while it does give some sort of a boost.
Mr. Death:
--- Quote from: segaily on February 22, 2019, 08:33:45 PM ---I have always felt this way too. While the mantle might not do much if anything to protect Harry from injury it clearly does give some boosts. Hard to say how much is just belief and how much is real. I think Butters is right in that Harry needs to be very careful to not hurt himself but that does not mean Harry is getting nothing from the mantle. Butter's does not trust it so he thinks the worst instead of thinking he could be right about it even while it does give some sort of a boost.
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Butters also hasn't actually seen Harry do a lot of the crazy super strength things he's done.
Fcrate:
--- Quote from: Yuillegan on February 22, 2019, 04:04:02 AM ---The frustrating thing with the later books is Jim took the soft approach - the dumbo's feather approach - on a lot of his power ups. In Skin Games Harry talks about how Lasciel isn't making Hannah Ascher any more powerful really, she just stirs up her passion (which Fire magic comes from) which makes Hannah think she is more powerful.
Same with the pretty weak explanation from Butters about how the Winter Mantle doesn't make Harry any stronger really, it just dulls his pain and gives him more access to his more primal self and makes it more easy to use Ice magic.
Bit of a cop out, especially considering the opposite side seem to get an actual power up (e.g. Fix gets fire magic, where previously he couldn't use fire magic. Also when Harry uses Soulfire in more complex ways it really boosts the efficiency of his spells and achieves much more exceptional results). Seems like Jim did a retcon of his previous ideas for one reason or another...
Exartiem - I don't think that is true exactly. Dark magic in the Dresden Files seems to have an inherently "evil" quality beyond the intention or mindset of the user. If that were not the case, as you say, then anyone with a complex moral compass could avoid the adverse affects the dark magic has on users. Bear in mind most people do not think of themselves or their actions as "evil" even if the majority thinks they are. In the Dresden Universe there does seem to be an absolute moral authority defining "good" and "evil" regardless on how one might think about the moral quality of an action.
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+1
Regular mortals who became Winter Knights could use magic at a "Pretty brawny Wizard" level, so I'd assumed that Harry's power at least doubled. Hated Butter's explanation and Harry's acceptance of it, as it wil cripple him.
Snark Knight:
--- Quote from: groinkick on February 21, 2019, 03:17:33 AM ---Anyways I was thinking that in a desperate situation someone like Harry could call upon hellfire so he can do serious damage without burning off his own soul.
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Well, hellfire and soulfire are described as sides of the same coin. So I'd guess at minimum, if someone who was granted soulfire subsequently went dark side on an epic enough scale, they'd be able to burn their own essence as hellfire rather than soulfire. It's probably a big part of why Uriel and co. are very careful about using markers in the great conflict to break rules by investing mortals with soulfire.
I tend to think based on the sides of the coin WOJ that hellfire was the Fallen's own rather power rather than something they draw from the region of the NN they inhabit, though. That doesn't necessarily preclude there being a way to hack it without their cooperation - a coin whose bearer was killed or surrendered it might make a channel to use against the linked Fallen, for one - but it would be much more difficult under that interpretation.
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