The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers

Can Hellfire be used without a Coin?

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exartiem:

--- Quote from: Bad Alias on February 21, 2019, 10:06:39 PM ---I'm of the opinion that Hellfire and Soulfire are both "soul energy." So they have to come from a soul. That could be an angel's or a mortal's. So, in theory, Harry could use Hellfire.

--- End quote ---

I agree.  I see it more like the difference between the Dark Side of the Force and the light.  It is the same energy, the difference is the intent or emotional state of the user.  Same with black magic, the mindset decides whether it is good or evil.

nadia.skylark:

--- Quote ---I recall this WoJ, and it leads me to think that one is inherently good and one inherently evil.
--- End quote ---

Well...one is inherently creative and one is inherently destructive, which I suppose corresponds roughly to "good" and "evil" for angels. Humans...not so much.

It would be really cool if Harry could use both soulfire and hellfire because his nature is unfixed and is inherently conflicted (which is the reason for hexing).

Yuillegan:
The frustrating thing with the later books is Jim took the soft approach - the dumbo's feather approach - on a lot of his power ups. In Skin Games Harry talks about how Lasciel isn't making Hannah Ascher any more powerful really, she just stirs up her passion (which Fire magic comes from) which makes Hannah think she is more powerful.

Same with the pretty weak explanation from Butters about how the Winter Mantle doesn't make Harry any stronger really, it just dulls his pain and gives him more access to his more primal self and makes it more easy to use Ice magic.

Bit of a cop out, especially considering the opposite side seem to get an actual power up (e.g. Fix gets fire magic, where previously he couldn't use fire magic. Also when Harry uses Soulfire in more complex ways it really boosts the efficiency of his spells and achieves much more exceptional results). Seems like Jim did a retcon of his previous ideas for one reason or another...

Exartiem - I don't think that is true exactly. Dark magic in the Dresden Files seems to have an inherently "evil" quality beyond the intention or mindset of the user. If that were not the case, as you say, then anyone with a complex moral compass could avoid the adverse affects the dark magic has on users. Bear in mind most people do not think of themselves or their actions as "evil" even if the majority thinks they are. In the Dresden Universe there does seem to be an absolute moral authority defining "good" and "evil" regardless on how one might think about the moral quality of an action.

Bad Alias:
Jim has said intent matters, but results matter way more. I disagree quite a bit with this worldview, but I'm not in charge of the Dresdenverse. Magic resulting in mortal death is black magic that taints the wizard. Even if its a freak accident or self defense. I think that's silly. People would avoid using magic. Harry's candle lighting spell risks costing him his very soul if the candles had ever caught his boarding house on fire.

If using hellfire makes an angel into a demon, it can't be good. And Uriel causes destruction, like killing all the first born of Egypt, without using hellfire, so it isn't as simple as creation/destruction.

I agree that the soft peddling of power ups is annoying. In Summer Knight, the Knights were so powerful that Bob said something to the effect of turning the city block where they were was the most likely way to kill them. In Cold Days, Harry and Fix are doing physical feats no real human has ever been known to do. People have mentioned it here before. I think Fix shatters the running long jump record. From a stand still.

morriswalters:
I suspect that Hellfire is a property of Lucifer, a corruption of soulfire, and that if you use it, you get it as a boon from him.  By invitation only.
--- Quote ---“Insufferable, arrogant little monkey,” Namshiel hissed. “Playing with the fires of creation. Binding your soul to it, as if you were one of us. How dare you so presume. How dare you wield soulfire against me. I, who was there when your pathetic kind was hewn from the muck.”
--- End quote ---
I will go one step further and suggest that Namshiel couldn't use  all the power actually available to the Fallen, if the Fallen were released from the coin.  The power of the fallen resembles the mantles, in that the more you use it the deeper into it you go.  The Fallen are most powerful in their alternate forms as the host gives up more of their identity.  This plays into how Jim Butcher treats the Winter Mantle.  In the battle on Demonreach Harry is fighting  the tendency to draw too much power from the mantle at the expense of his control of it.  Butters is only half right about the mantle. 

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