The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Did Harry lie to Michael, or worse?
Mira:
--- Quote from: morriswalters on March 18, 2019, 06:53:09 PM ---Corrected quote attribution.Italics indicate Harry thinking at Susan.
--- End quote ---
I am not so sure of that, I think it can go either way... Interestingly Lea dressed her in leathers, it really wasn't classic armor, though she demoed that it was bullet proof she never warned against iron knives, spears etc... Harry didn't either in fairness... However though Martin had a machete and could have slashed her before she ripped his throat out... He didn't.. Either he didn't know about the iron and fae thing, or Susan turning was part of his plan... Come to think of it, since the Red King ripped the knife he was going to use on little Maggie from Harry's belt, why didn't he stab Harry while he was at it? Or was he also totally stupid on the subject of iron and the fae.
morriswalters:
In terms of Changes I'm just supplying the text, as written. How you interpret it is up to you, it seems straightforward to me.
In terms of the quotes about Nicodemus, it's obvious to me that the White God is the Enemy. What that might mean for Deirdre is unknown. Is it better than what Hades might have in mind? Your guess is as good as mine.
Speaking to symmetry, there is the obvious symmetry of two women being sacrificed by their male partners, which is mildly creepy. In terms of purpose I know one and I couldn't begin to guess the other. So unless enlightened by Jim there isn't much in the text to support any conclusions.
Some interesting questions for which I have no answers, are. If Satan controls Hell and the Denarians are in league with him, what does that imply as regards Deirdre had she died outside of Hades domain? Did she face perma death versus whatever weirdness Hades might dream up.
--- Quote from: nadia.skylark ---If I remember correctly, they could see each other and speak to each other, but I don't think there was any emotional transference (if someone could quote this bit, it would be great. I don't have my books with me).
--- End quote ---
Here you go.
--- Quote ---There was a shocked silence, and then Elaine's thought-voice said, more clearly, Harry?
And her lips moved, and the not-Elaine voice said, "What the hell?"
Elaine's eyes snapped to mine, suddenly meeting them, and the room around her clarified into crystalline relief.
She was in the bathroom of the hotel, in the tub, naked in the bath.
The air was thick with steam. She was bleeding from a broad cut across one wrist. The water was red. Her face was god-awful pale, but her eyes weren't fogged over and hazed out. Not yet.
Elaine! I thundered. You are under a psychic attack! Priscilla is the Skavis!
Elaine's eyes widened.
Someone slapped me hard on the face and screamed, "Harry!"
The world flew sideways and expanded in a rush of motion and sound as my denied senses came crashing back in upon me. The Beetle was sitting sideways across several parking spaces in the motel's little lot, both doors open, and Murphy, gun in one hand, had a hold of my duster with the other and was shaking me hard. "Harry! Get up!"
--- End quote ---
nadia.skylark:
--- Quote ---Come to think of it, since the Red King ripped the knife he was going to use on little Maggie from Harry's belt, why didn't he stab Harry while he was at it? Or was he also totally stupid on the subject of iron and the fae.
--- End quote ---
Because that knife was obsidian, not iron.
--- Quote ---Here you go.
--- End quote ---
Thanks! This quote seems to make it clear that what is conveyed is words, plus an image of the person and where they are. Based on that, I'd say that any of Harry's feelings and thoughts not phrased as dialog would not have been transmitted to Susan.
Mira:
--- Quote ---In terms of the quotes about Nicodemus, it's obvious to me that the White God is the Enemy. What that might mean for Deirdre is unknown. Is it better than what Hades might have in mind? Your guess is as good as mine.
--- End quote ---
Oh I think that is obvious to everyone who reads the books. What that means to Deirdre is what Harry would have faced had he chosen to move on in Ghost Story, what comes next... As Uriel
told him on page 454 in Ghost Story..
--- Quote ---"The part involving words like forever,eternity, and judgement."
--- End quote ---
Now one could argue if Nic's side wins she won't face that, but that is yet to be determined... In the meantime though, it seems like Nic and Deirdre were under the impression that she wouldn't be punished quite so harshly in Hades and would be safe from final judgement if they lose.. Seems like both feared that judgement more than anything that could happen to her soul in Hades... However
when Harry asked Hades about her, his reply was for Harry to go back and reread the classics, he also implied that she'd stay in his care in any case..
Harry concluded 349 Skin Game
--- Quote ---I didn't know what would happen to Deirdre--but I knew she wasn't going to get off light.
--- End quote ---
The Hell of Satan and Hades controlled by Hades are two different places... Hades is the realm of the dead, all the dead travel there, a place of reward for a good life as well as a place of punishment for those who didn't live one.
Deirdre did die in the Realm of Hades, under his jurisdiction, so he gets to deal with her.... If she had died some place else, then she'd face what Uriel had told Harry... Apparently she and Nic feared the latter more than the former, they may have been wrong there...
Deirdre is Nic's daugher, Susan was Harry lover, not the same at all... Technically she was no longer Susan when Harry killed her, otherwise the reverse spell wouldn't have worked.. Deirdre was still herself when Nic killed her.
nadia.skylark:
--- Quote ---Oh I think that is obvious to everyone who reads the books.
--- End quote ---
Nope! There's a bunch of people who think that he was referring to Nemesis there (and they might be right).
--- Quote ---Deirdre is Nic's daugher, Susan was Harry lover, not the same at all... Technically she was no longer Susan when Harry killed her, otherwise the reverse spell wouldn't have worked.. Deirdre was still herself when Nic killed her.
--- End quote ---
They were both people who loved their killers, and who allowed themselves to be killed for love. Their killers both used that love, plus a judicious bit of lying (possibly. If Nic was referring to Nemesis when he talked about the Enemy, he might not have been) to convince them to allow themselves to be killed even though it hurt all of them to do it.
Also, Susan's body might have been different, but in the moments she was killed she was clearly still herself--otherwise she wouldn't have let Harry kill her. She almost certainly would have become a different person eventually, but it hadn't happened yet.
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