The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Did Michael lie?
nadia.skylark:
--- Quote ---They didn't watch him being beaten up.
--- End quote ---
Watching or not, they were laughing (among other things) at his face:
--- Quote ---Michael nodded. "Who are we to judge you?" His eyes flashed,
and he asked Sanya, "Did you see the snake's face, right when
Harry turned with the bat?"
Sanya smiled and started whistling as we walked through the
parking lot.
--- End quote ---
--- Quote ---However it is possible to be totally against something yet get some satisfaction when it happens. Case in point, death penalty, one can be totally against it, yet when some really evil mass murderer gets executed it is hard to feel bad about it. What I am saying emotions are complicated, few of us are saints, and even saints have moments of weakness. Michael and Sanya are Holy Knights, it isn't their job to judge Cassius or Harry. The whole scene was complicated, Harry didn't just wack away at Cassius with the baseball bat just because he could. Cassius did all he could to provoke him and he lost it... Also there were many lives at stake and as a
last resort Harry tried to beat answers out of him... Given who Cassius had been and what he had done etc, it is very possible for Michael and Sanya to be against beating him up but at the same time find some satisfaction in Cassius getting what he perhaps richly deserved. Understanding something isn't the same as condoning something.
--- End quote ---
I think I may have been unclear. I am not saying that Michael would normally be all right with torture. I am not saying that he was not uncomfortable with it. I am saying that in this particular circumstance he acknowledged tacitly that it was both justified and necessary, even though he objected for form's sake.
Put it another way: do you think Michael would have stood by and not interfered if Harry was torturing an innocent child, just because he didn't have the right to judge Harry? I don't. Therefore, his reaction to Cassius' torture clearly indicated an exception to the rule based on circumstances.
In the same way, I am arguing, Michael normally would not lie, especially not about something important, but might reasonably make an exception to protect Harry's soul from Lasciel.
Mr. Death:
--- Quote from: Bad Alias on February 21, 2019, 10:45:18 PM ---The way I see it is that the fallen powers the shadow continuously. There is a connection between the shadow and the fallen, so a circle isn't going to stop the fallen from feeding the shadow. A circle might break the connection between the coin and the holder, but not the fallen and the shadow.
--- End quote ---
That doesn't make any sense. The whole point of the circle is to cut it off from everything else. And the whole point of the coin is to keep the Fallen from affecting anything outside the coin.
How can it cut off the Fallen from Harry, but not cut off the Fallen from the Shadow which is inside Harry? How can the Fallen be connected to the Shadow when it's incapable of affecting anything outside its coin?
And Lash herself makes it clear that she isn't connected to Lasciel anymore; if she was connected to Lasciel, she'd be reabsorbed.
--- Quote ---I think this because the shadow is fueled by the fallen. If the connection is broken, then the shadow will have to fade away or drain energy from Harry. If it is draining energy from Harry, he would be weaker, not stronger. In White Night, the shadow uses Harry's energy to go against the fallen. The shadow looks worn and haggard.
--- End quote ---
It's not "draining" energy on that scale because it's just plain not something that big. The Shadow is, well, a Shadow -- it explicitly does not have access to the Fallen's power, just its knowledge and allows access to Hellfire. The most the Shadow does is stuff that's internal to Harry along those lines. The point of the Shadow is to be a tiny taste of the Fallen to tempt the coin holder into taking the whole thing.
Lash doesn't use Harry's energy to "go against the Fallen," she uses it to change herself. The Fallen isn't there; it can't be there, it's doubly trapped, in the coin and in the circle.
Mira:
--- Quote ---Put it another way: do you think Michael would have stood by and not interfered if Harry was torturing an innocent child, just because he didn't have the right to judge Harry? I don't. Therefore, his reaction to Cassius' torture clearly indicated an exception to the rule based on circumstances.
--- End quote ---
He wouldn't stand by, but Cassius isn't an innocent child, and he did try to talk Harry out of further action and he and Sanya walked away before what went down, went down... Michael still would not presume to judge Harry even if he did beat up an innocent child.
--- Quote ---In the same way, I am arguing, Michael normally would not lie, especially not about something important, but might reasonably make an exception to protect Harry's soul from Lasciel.
--- End quote ---
That would have no effect on protecting Harry's soul from Lasciel, I'd argue the opposite..
I don't think Michael objected for form sake, if he did, he'd be rejected really quick as a Holy Knight..
It would be nice if it were all black and white, but it isn't, and as Michael would say, "the Lord works in mysterious ways.." In other words because of his personal beliefs and the rules governing his role as a Holy Knight, Michael cannot do more than he did, fight Cassius until he was either killed, got away, or surrendered his coin. Cassius chose the last, under the rules of being a Holy Knight Michael did his job, enabled Cassius to seek or not seek redemption with what is left of his life... At the same time Michael is very aware of the mockery of the surrender, that Cassius was trying to survive not seek redemption... He was also very aware that Cassius had knowledge that could save thousands... But he could do nothing about it but walk away, not because he was okay with Harry wacking Cassius in any way, and he voiced that... However as Harry pointed out to the then smug Cassius, he isn't under any of the constraints that Michael and Sanya were, so he proceeded.. Which
Michael was okay with because it isn't his place to judge Harry, because Harry doesn't have to play under the same rules that he does, and the information he got could save lives... When he and Sanya walked away they left it in the hands of the Almighty and Harry in this case was His tool... If they saw some humor in the bit about the quarter has nothing to do with it.
nadia.skylark:
--- Quote ---He wouldn't stand by, but Cassius isn't an innocent child
--- End quote ---
Exactly.
--- Quote ---and he did try to talk Harry out of further action and he and Sanya walked away before what went down, went down...
--- End quote ---
Can someone please quote the scene before Michael walks away from Cassius? Because my copies of all the books are in storage at the moment, but from what I remember, Michael explains why he and Sanya can't do anything but doesn't say anything about what Harry should do. I may be misremembering, though.
--- Quote ---Michael still would not presume to judge Harry even if he did beat up an innocent child.
--- End quote ---
No, but he would try to stop him.
--- Quote ---That would have no effect on protecting Harry's soul from Lasciel, I'd argue the opposite..
--- End quote ---
Can you please explain this? Suggested reasons for Michael to lie to Harry is that he thought his proposal would do some good but not as much as stated and that he was initially mistaken and did not correct his statement later because doing so risked encouraging Harry to take up Lasciel's coin. Both of those reasons essentially boil down to Michael trying to protect Harry's soul.
--- Quote ---I don't think Michael objected for form sake, if he did, he'd be rejected really quick as a Holy Knight..
--- End quote ---
Why? He didn't do anything wrong.
--- Quote ---It would be nice if it were all black and white, but it isn't, and as Michael would say, "the Lord works in mysterious ways.." In other words because of his personal beliefs and the rules governing his role as a Holy Knight, Michael cannot do more than he did, fight Cassius until he was either killed, got away, or surrendered his coin. Cassius chose the last, under the rules of being a Holy Knight Michael did his job, enabled Cassius to seek or not seek redemption with what is left of his life... At the same time Michael is very aware of the mockery of the surrender, that Cassius was trying to survive not seek redemption... He was also very aware that Cassius had knowledge that could save thousands... But he could do nothing about it but walk away, not because he was okay with Harry wacking Cassius in any way, and he voiced that... However as Harry pointed out to the then smug Cassius, he isn't under any of the constraints that Michael and Sanya were, so he proceeded.. Which
Michael was okay with because it isn't his place to judge Harry, because Harry doesn't have to play under the same rules that he does, and the information he got could save lives... When he and Sanya walked away they left it in the hands of the Almighty and Harry in this case was His tool... If they saw some humor in the bit about the quarter has nothing to do with it.
--- End quote ---
This is what I am saying.
I feel like you think that I'm saying that Michael is an awful person and are defending him by saying that the evidence I'm citing is because he's human, when what I'm trying to say is that Michael is human, he's not an angel, and TWG does not expect him to be. As such he can at least slightly compromise his morals to account for circumstances, where an angel cannot do so without Falling. Uriel could not lie to Harry no matter what his reasoning--Michael can.
Mira:
--- Quote ---I feel like you think that I'm saying that Michael is an awful person and are defending him by saying that the evidence I'm citing is because he's human, when what I'm trying to say is that Michael is human, he's not an angel, and TWG does not expect him to be. As such he can at least slightly compromise his morals to account for circumstances, where an angel cannot do so without Falling. Uriel could not lie to Harry no matter what his reasoning--Michael can.
--- End quote ---
What you are calling a lie, isn't...
--- Quote ---Can you please explain this? Suggested reasons for Michael to lie to Harry is that he thought his proposal would do some good but not as much as stated and that he was initially mistaken and did not correct his statement later because doing so risked encouraging Harry to take up Lasciel's coin. Both of those reasons essentially boil down to Michael trying to protect Harry's soul.
--- End quote ---
Yes, if Michael believed his proposal would help Harry rid himself of the shadow is not a lie... Simply because Michael sincerely believed it, he wasn't blowing smoke... He was simply wrong about that or mistaken about that, that is quite different from telling a lie.. It is like if you have a bad cold, I drink a lot of tea and sincerely believe that if you drank a lot of ginger tea it could cure it and suggest it to you... It soothes but it isn't a cure. Did I lie to you or am I just mistaken?
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