The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Did Michael lie?
nadia.skylark:
--- Quote ---In the first instance Michael is trying to help Harry to do something he doesn't really think is possible.. So he suggests that if Harry gives up his power he can rid himself of the shadow... It is like if he suggested if Harry stood on his head for three minutes each day he could cure his brain tumor.. When as far as Michael's knowledge of this kind of brain cancer is concerned, it is terminal, but there is an outside chance that it could work.. Technically a lie I suppose, but it is also a bit of a prayer and a hope that if Harry was willing to do that God would remove the shadow.
--- End quote ---
That's a bit more than technically a lie. I mean, what happens if Harry goes through with it, gives up his powers, and still has the shadow? Is he just going to be fine with it? Given that Harry uses his powers to protect people (and based on the books, it is entirely likely that Harry would have to deal with innocent people dying because he refuses to use his power to save them) I think if he realized that Michael had lied to him he would be far more likely to disregard everything that Michael says/has said...and given that Harry still has Lasciel's shadow...
--- Quote ---Harry never handed him the coin and said, "here I reject this..."
--- End quote ---
No, but Harry gave the coin to Forthill, so I find it pretty unbelievable that Michael doesn't know.
nadia.skylark:
Personally, I think that the issue is that at the end of Proven Guilty, Michael still believes that magic is a dubious/corrupting power, and that if Harry gets rid of it it will reduce the shadow's hold on him. He lies via exaggeration and omission to Harry (saying that it will get rid of the shadow and not mentioning why he believes Harry giving up his magic will help) because he knows that if he explains things truthfully Harry will turn him down, and he genuinely wants to save Harry from Lasciel. He tells Harry that he believes Harry can find another way to get rid of the shadow because he knows how important hope is against the Fallen.
By Small Favor, however, Michael has had a chance to watch Molly being trained in magic, and to understand that magic is not an inherently corruptive force. Due to this, he no longer believes that giving up magic would help against the Fallen, and tells Harry that there is no way to be rid of a shadow short of picking up the coin.
Bad Alias:
Proven Guilty:
1:
--- Quote ---Give up the coin of you own will. And set aside your power. If you do, Lasciel's shadow will dwindle with it and waste away.
--- End quote ---
2:
--- Quote ---I don't know of another way to end Lasciel's influence, but that doesn't mean there isn't one out there.
--- End quote ---
Small Favor:
3:
--- Quote ---Because in two thousand years no one has rid themselves of the shadow of one of the Fallen-except by accepting the demon into them entirely, taking up the coin, and living to feel remorse and discarding it. And you claim that you never took up the coin."
--- End quote ---
4:
--- Quote ---"Then either the shadow is still there," Michael said, "still twisting your thoughts. Still whispering to you. Or you're lying to me about taking up the coin. Those are the only options."
--- End quote ---
Statement 1 and 3 could both be true*, but how would Michael know statement 1 was true if statement 3 was also true? It could be that Michael believed statement 1, but researched it because he had never been in the position of dealing with someone who had not taken up an offered coin. Then he came to believe statement 3. He didn't inform Harry because that would only push him to take up the coin to get rid of the shadow.
*We know statement 3 is false. We have no evidence that statement 1 is true and some that it is false, or at least would be a black swan event.
Or it's a continuity error that no one caught before going to print.
Mira:
--- Quote ---*We know statement 3 is false.
--- End quote ---
As far as Michael's knowledge goes, statement 3 wasn't false... It had never happened before Harry came along. The fact that Harry was able to resist then reject the shadow got Heaven's attention..
Statement 1 is more of a hope, more like Michael expressing his own hope and belief than actual knowledge... In his mind he could be telling the truth though it was not based on any facts as far as he knew them..
morriswalters:
--- Quote from: nadia.skylark on February 15, 2019, 01:33:27 AM ---In Proven Guilty, Michael says that Harry can get rid of Lasciel's shadow by giving up his power. Then, when Harry turns him down, Michael says that he has faith that Harry will find another way to be rid of Lasciel's shadow. However, in Small Favor Michael claims that there is no way to be rid of a shadow of the Fallen, and uses this as a justification for believing that Harry set up a little girl to be tortured.
Am I misremembering/misunderstanding, or is this an outright lie about a major issue by the series' resident paladin?
--- End quote ---
A misunderstanding. This is the first quote.
--- Quote ---“I don’t know of another way to end Lasciel’s influence, but that doesn’t mean there isn’t one out there. If you should change your mind about the coin, Harry, if you want to get rid of it, I promise that I’ll be there for you.”
--- End quote ---
This is the second.
--- Quote ---“Then either the shadow is still there,” Michael said, “still twisting your thoughts. Still whispering to you. Or you’re lying to me about taking up the coin. Those are the only options.”
--- End quote ---
First the context. Mab has brain wiped Harry, trying to keep Harry from attracting attention by using his fire magic. This makes Harry act out of character, thus leading Micheal to believe it is possible that Harry has fallen prey to the coin.
There is a difference between the Shadow and the coin, they can't both exist concurrently, if someone picks up the coin and keeps it with them the Shadow is reabsorbed. Which is why Sanya could toss the coin in the Canal and lose his fallen, he had the coin but not the shadow. On the other hand, he believes the only way to lose the shadow is through disuse. Which is the distinction Micheal makes. He isn't aware of the fact the Shadow could be destroyed by a psychic attack.
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[#] Next page
[*] Previous page
Go to full version