The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Did Michael lie?
morriswalters:
--- Quote from: Mr. Death on February 20, 2019, 09:03:52 PM ---The Shadow allows Harry access to Hellfire -- that doesn't mean the Shadow is powering the Hellfire.
Plus, isn't Lash being powered by Harry's power and soul part of the explanation for how she was able to grow and change?
Plus plus, Harry had buried the coin in a containment circle and cut himself off from Lasciel's whispers as soon as he got the coin.
All the evidence we have points to the Shadow being a separate entity from Lasciel, one that does not have access to her.
--- End quote ---
When Harry buried the coin he wasn't aware of the Shadow. And he didn't understand what it was capable of. For instance Lash tells Harry in the Raith Deeps that she can show him how to summon the coin. So to me that means there is a connection.
And I didn't say the Shadow was powering the Hellfire. The Shadow exists because it is written in Harry's brain, the Shadow is doing a ride along. If Harry dies the Shadow dies. But the Shadow never acts in the real world. So where does hellfire come from?
nadia.skylark:
--- Quote ---Plus, isn't Lash being powered by Harry's power and soul part of the explanation for how she was able to grow and change?
--- End quote ---
I'm pretty sure Bob tells Harry at the end of White Night that he gave Lash access to his soul by encouraging her to be her own person, which only happened during that book.
On the other hand, we have WoJ saying that Bob didn't actually know what happened, and was only theorizing, so...
Mr. Death:
--- Quote from: morriswalters on February 20, 2019, 11:28:55 PM ---When Harry buried the coin he wasn't aware of the Shadow. And he didn't understand what it was capable of. For instance Lash tells Harry in the Raith Deeps that she can show him how to summon the coin. So to me that means there is a connection.
--- End quote ---
Harry being unaware of the shadow is irrelevant -- Lasciel's whispers stop when he puts her in the circle. The Shadow is clearly not Lasciel, as Lash continually refers to Lasciel as a separate entity, and makes it clear that she has, at best, Lasciel's knowledge and extremely limited power.
Harry can summon the Erlking. That doesn't mean Harry gets his power from the Erlking. Of course there's a connection -- Lash was made by the coin and is a copy of the Fallen's consciousness.
--- Quote ---And I didn't say the Shadow was powering the Hellfire. The Shadow exists because it is written in Harry's brain, the Shadow is doing a ride along. If Harry dies the Shadow dies. But the Shadow never acts in the real world. So where does hellfire come from?
--- End quote ---
No, you said the Fallen was powering the Hellfire; I'm positing that the Fallen is not, because it's contained in the coin and therefore incapable of acting directly on or through Harry. That's rather the point of it being in a coin in the first place -- it can't act without something else willing to let it act through it.
Presumably, the Hellfire comes from Hell.
I look at it this way -- Harry's got access to a number of 'taps' normally; ambient energy, the weather, ley lines, his own emotions and power, etc. Each is like a faucet. There's a couple that he normally doesn't have access to -- like Hellfire. Lash lets him turn that faucet's knob, but neither she nor the Fallen is the one actually providing the 'water' coming out of it.
morriswalters:
--- Quote ---No, you said the Fallen was powering the Hellfire; I'm positing that the Fallen is not, because it's contained in the coin and therefore incapable of acting directly on or through Harry. That's rather the point of it being in a coin in the first place -- it can't act without something else willing to let it act through it.
--- End quote ---
Well, we see it differently. But maybe yours is the better theory. I'll think on it.
nadia.skylark:
--- Quote ---No, you said the Fallen was powering the Hellfire; I'm positing that the Fallen is not, because it's contained in the coin and therefore incapable of acting directly on or through Harry. That's rather the point of it being in a coin in the first place -- it can't act without something else willing to let it act through it.
--- End quote ---
Does anyone have a copy of White Night that they can check? I don't have mine with me, but I think I remember something being said about this at the end (Bob saying something about how the shadow had a tiny piece of Lasciel's power that she stopped drawing on when she turned against Lasciel, I think).
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