The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Did Michael lie?
nadia.skylark:
--- Quote ---Dependency, the more the potential host uses it, the greater the influence which eventually leads to the acceptance of the coin which is the goal of the shadow. Consider, on one level Harry was resisting Lasciel, but at the same time over time he became more and more dependent upon the use of things like hellfire, and he wasn't aware of how it was changing him.... It took Murphy's sit down and the incident with Molly and the fireball for him to realize how the shadow was changing him.
--- End quote ---
Once again, this advances the shadow's goals, but it doesn't seem to strengthen the shadow itself. An analogy would be the Alphas deciding to work with Harry: It makes Harry more effective at accomplishing his goals, but it doesn't make him able to, for example, lift more weight or throw spells harder, and he's not going to pop out of existence spontaneously if all his allies suddenly stop working with him (the fact that he'll probably get killed is beside the point).
--- Quote ---The Knights have a narrow lane with in to work, like for angels the rules are very strict. The mission is enable redemption by getting the Denarian they are fighting to give up their coins, or kill them in the process.. However once the coin is given up, it is out of their hands. That is why they refused to
mess with Cassius once he gave up his coin... Free will, it didn't matter what Cassius had done or was, without the coin he now had a chance to live the rest of his life redeeming himself ultimately or not, it was out of their hands.
--- End quote ---
It can't be that narrow. Redeeming Denarians may be their primary purpose, but Michael has fought humans summoning non-Fallen demons, Hobs, and Outsiders at least. Based on what Michael said about why he couldn't help Hannah at the Gate of Fire, I'd assume that part of their job is also the protection of the innocent.
--- Quote ---That is the "catch 22" of free will, Harry's choice to punish and seek revenge over Cassius.. That isn't the job of a Knight, that is for the Almighty, what Cassius chose to do from there on out was his..
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True. But I don't think free will would have prevented Michael from trying to convince Harry not to/stop him from torturing Cassius, and if Michael truly believed that it was genuinely Wrong, as opposed to techically-wrong-but-actually-not, then he should have made the attempt.
Now, I don't actually believe he did think it was Wrong, under the circumstances, just like I believe that he didn't think it was Wrong to lie to Harry in service of saving his soul from being corrupted by the Fallen.
morriswalters:
--- Quote from: Mr. Death on February 20, 2019, 12:54:08 PM ---Where is this stated? To my knowledge, the only explanation anyone has ever given for what powers the Shadow is that it's powered by Harry's magic.
--- End quote ---
It isn't stated explicitly. But with the Shadow Harry can use Hellfire, absent the Shadow he can't. Therefore the power for Hellfire comes from somewhere outside Harry.
Mira:
--- Quote from: morriswalters on February 20, 2019, 07:24:26 PM ---It isn't stated explicitly. But with the Shadow Harry can use Hellfire, absent the Shadow he can't. Therefore the power for Hellfire comes from somewhere outside Harry.
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Not necessarily, absent the shadow, the same anger isn't present in Harry. Remember in the field when the ghouls got the young apprentices and Harry completely lost it and went postal with hell fire? It's the anger that makes the difference in my opinion, kind of like Star Wars, there is the Force, and then there is the dark side of the Force, they come from the same place but it is how they are used that makes the difference, where on enhances the other corrupts..
--- Quote ---True. But I don't think free will would have prevented Michael from trying to convince Harry not to/stop him from torturing Cassius, and if Michael truly believed that it was genuinely Wrong, as opposed to techically-wrong-but-actually-not, then he should have made the attempt.
--- End quote ---
Michael did make the attempt to stop Harry, but could not convince him to not hurt Cassius. Which pissed Harry off considerably because he doesn't understand Holy Knights or their purpose..
Micheal explains page296 paperback Death Masks.
--- Quote ---"The Knights are here to protect freedom. To give those who are under the oppression of dark forces the chance to win free of them. I cannot sit in judgement on this man's soul, Harry Dresden. Not for you. Not for anyone. All I can do is remain faithful to my calling. Give him the chance to see hope for his future. To show him the love and the compassion any human being should show another. The rest is out of my hands."
--- End quote ---
What you are missing is the context, Michael and company had defeated Cassius, in a ploy to save his ass, Cassius gave up his coin, which he knew would take the Holy Knights out of the fight. He had hope that his fellow Denarians would still take him back and he'd gain another coin. Harry saw though this and didn't understand the constraints that Michael has to fight under... If he had tried to continue the fight after Cassius gave up the coin, his Sword would have shattered just as Murphy's had against Nic... Harry continued to want to take him out, but now the fight was out of Michael's hands, but he did try to talk Harry out of injuring Cassius, Sanya, not so much..
nadia.skylark:
--- Quote ---Michael did make the attempt to stop Harry, but could not convince him to not hurt Cassius. Which pissed Harry off considerably because he doesn't understand Holy Knights or their purpose..
What you are missing is the context, Michael and company had defeated Cassius, in a ploy to save his ass, Cassius gave up his coin, which he knew would take the Holy Knights out of the fight. He had hope that his fellow Denarians would still take him back and he'd gain another coin. Harry saw though this and didn't understand the constraints that Michael has to fight under... If he had tried to continue the fight after Cassius gave up the coin, his Sword would have shattered just as Murphy's had against Nic... Harry continued to want to take him out, but now the fight was out of Michael's hands, but he did try to talk Harry out of injuring Cassius, Sanya, not so much..
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I understand the context: that's why my assumption is that Michael is at least marginally okay with the torture, even though his job means that he can't acknowledge it.
Did Michael try to talk Harry out of it? I was under the impression that he explained why he couldn't do anything, not that he was trying to convince Harry not to do anything.
Mr. Death:
--- Quote from: morriswalters on February 20, 2019, 07:24:26 PM ---It isn't stated explicitly. But with the Shadow Harry can use Hellfire, absent the Shadow he can't. Therefore the power for Hellfire comes from somewhere outside Harry.
--- End quote ---
The Shadow allows Harry access to Hellfire -- that doesn't mean the Shadow is powering the Hellfire.
Plus, isn't Lash being powered by Harry's power and soul part of the explanation for how she was able to grow and change?
Plus plus, Harry had buried the coin in a containment circle and cut himself off from Lasciel's whispers as soon as he got the coin.
All the evidence we have points to the Shadow being a separate entity from Lasciel, one that does not have access to her.
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