The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Black Council/The Circle/Nemesis
Yuillegan:
Good ideas all, but I seem to remember in one of the more recent novels that Harry has an epiphany where he realises what he assumed, in his arrogance, was a group of dark wizards could be something much larger and more complex and diverse in it's affliates and members.
I think this is when he is getting a better idea about Nemesis etc.
KurtinStGeorge:
I remember a scene from the third X-Men movie; The Last Stand, the one that totally botched the Dark Phoenix storyline, where Magneto sends a bunch of his recruits into battle, but holds his most powerful ones back and says of the first group, "They're cannon fodder." I get the feeling there is something similar going on with the Black Council or Circle.
There are actually a surprising number of people and not people who know something is going on, that something big is about to happen and for various reasons see it as an opportunity to gain power for themselves. Only a few are really clued in and they don't have any problem with using and sacrificing people they pretend to bring in to the conspiracy. So for example, it's possible that Cowl was behind some of the planning that went into the assault on Demonreach island in "Cold Days," but he sure as hell didn't make himself a potential target by riding on any of the barges with the practitioners who were attempting the ritual to bring down the island prison's defences. In "White Night" Madrigal Raith thought he was joining the Circle, but even Vitto Malvora thought of him as a fool who could be sacrificed as the need allowed. Vitto was given power by an Outsider, but I would bet that Cowl thought of him as nothing more than a tool that could be sacrificed when the need arose, as it did.
We know there was a plan of some sort discussed by Margaret LeFay, Duchess Arianna of the Red Court and Lord Raith of the White Court. We don't know, but suspect that plan is at the heart of the Black Council / Circle. The first two people named are dead and the third might as well be dead, though I suppose it is technically possible for Lord Raith to make a comeback. Justin DuMorne had been a sometime ally to Margaret LeFay; presumably when she was full red light saber, so he may have known about the plan and he may or may not have been in direct contact with the Outsider HWWB. Harry believes that Justin called up HWWB, but Harry isn't a 100% reliable narrator. Margaret tried to get Ebenezer McCoy to join this conspiracy, but he refused. At least, that's what he told Harry. Finally, it's theoretically possible that Lara Raith may have learned something of her father's role in this plan, if she didn't turn him into a potato before she thought about questioning him for useful information. However, Lord Raith may have been too dangerous to do anything less than give him the equivalent of a lobotomy when Lara pacified him, so she may still be in the dark.
It seems to me that one day, when Harry gets more clues about what's going on and becomes a little bit inquisitive, he's going to have a conversation with Ebenezer and see if the old wizard can tell Harry about what Margaret's plan was about, assuming it has anything to do with the Black Council / Circle. Of course, Ebenezer could die before Harry ever thinks of asking his grandfather about that scheme. In fact, I think it's more likely Ebenezer would bring the subject up first, and might do so if he was dying and Harry was there.
Bad Alias:
--- Quote from: morriswalters on January 28, 2019, 11:55:45 PM ---This is a good, concise narrative that fits what few facts we have. And wardenferry419's call out on the Vichy government makes a certain amount of sense. If Cowls purpose in Dead Beat was to gain power and to defeat death, his actions read differently if by death you mean the Adversary.
Odd side issue, did anybody notice that both Ramirez and Kumori use gloves with their magic? Who was Ramirez's teacher?
--- End quote ---
Thanks. The main reason I brought this up is I've seen a lot of posters write as if they are all definitely, 100%, the same thing. Kind of like every villain is definitely infected. I just think that's a little one dimensional.
@Yuillegan: Molly definitely conflates the Black Council with Nemesis while Harry is talking in Cold Days. Harry just goes with it because of all the reasons one isn't supposed to go around talking about Nemesis. Regardless of what's actually going on, the term Black Council to describe members of the White Council working in opposition to it is useful, even if every single one of them is infected.
--- Quote from: KurtinStGeorge on January 29, 2019, 08:11:31 AM ---There are actually a surprising number of people and not people who know something is going on, that something big is about to happen and for various reasons see it as an opportunity to gain power for themselves.
--- End quote ---
I'd say some of the people/not people that see that something big is about to happen are preparing primarily to survive it. If they can gain power in the process, all the better. I think Jim stated something about Lara is expanding her influence because something big is coming. I inferred that she wouldn't normally take whatever risks are associated with influence at that level if not for the storm clouds on the horizon.
Salusen:
--- Quote from: Bad Alias on January 28, 2019, 09:07:44 PM ---So we all know that there is some conspiracy (or conspiracies) going on behind the scenes that has (or have) caused most, if not all, of Harry's major troubles. The first name we get is the Black Council from Harry because mortal practitioners are involved. Then we hear about a Circle in White Night and Changes. In White Night, it is some organization the Malvora and Madrigal Raith are working for, are aware of, and Cowl is the contact for. I find it unclear as to whether the Malvora is "in" the Circle or just an agent of it. In Changes, it is mentioned by the Eebs, but they might just be referring to the Lords of Outer Night.
I think of the Black Council as an organization made up of mortal practitioners, mostly current or former members of the White Council, separate from the Circle. I think of the Circle is an organization with representatives from various supernatural groups with some unknown mutual aims and a lot of backstabbing. The leadership of some supernatural groups are entirely aware of the Circle and part of it. I think the Black Council is one of those groups. Only factions of some groups are aware and represented. The White Council, through the Black Council, would be an example here.
Alternatively, the Black Council and the Circle could be the exact same thing. Either a group of wizards calling themselves the Circle, or a larger supernatural conspiracy that Dresden simply thought was made up of just wizards.
We've got a pretty clear picture of what Nemesis is, if not how it works. It's an Outsider secret agent/sapper/infiltrator.
I think Nemesis influences the Circle but does not control it. It almost certainly controls some of the members of every major supernatural group, including the Circle.
I also think the Circle has only thirteen members for the reasons stated in Storm Front. Additionally, there were thirteen Lords of Outer Night, perhaps for the same reason.
Alternatively, everything is either Nemesis or it's catspaws.
Thoughts?
--- End quote ---
I think you're onto something here. When I first read about the Black Council, Nemesis, and the Circle - I thought they were the same thing too. But since rereading the Dresden Files, I've come to three possible conclusions:
1. The Black Council is mostly made up of mortal practitioners who've turned their backs on the White Council (warlocks, etc.), but it's just a child compared to the Circle - who controls the Black Council. One or two of the members of the Circle may be infected with Nemesis. Or directly working with the Outsiders. Like Mavra. I think she's most likely a part of the Circle, but not necessarily the Black Council.
2. The Nemesis controls the Circle and the Black Council. The Black Council and the Circle on their own are dangerous enemies to Harry and friends, but the Nemesis made it possible for these two to become a lethal threat to every supernatural being on Earth. I think Nemesis started by creating the Circle, and then worked towards forming the Black Council through the Circle. Someone in the White Council, other than Peabody, is also a traitor.
3. Nicodemus and company planned to steal the five holy relics from Hades' vault because they have their own war against the Outsiders. The Fallen are still angels, and if the Outsiders ever get into the world -- they are a huge threat to the angels' power base. Lea thought the Athame could be used as a weapon against the Outsiders. But I'm guessing it's actually the knife Harry stole. So Nicodemus wanted that specifically but he had to settle for the Holy Grail.
And of course Uriel knew about their plan to steal the relics in advance. As an archangel, he told Harry that he intended to save the souls that were under the influence of the Denarians. But he's been known to work several plans all at once, so I think he also lent his Grace to Michael to ensure that the relics wouldn't fall into the wrong hands once they were stolen. And now that they're out in the world, they can be successfully used against the Outsiders.
So in future books, minions of Nemesis might come gunning for them. Possibly in the form of one of the Circle. Like Mavra. Or another supernatural entity infected with it. At this point, the Black Council can't really risk moving because they risk premature exposure.. so the obvious enemies will come for Harry, while the others work in the background.
Bad Alias:
I'm fairly certain that the knife was the Spear of Destiny and not anything else in addition to that. (The Holy Lance, also known as the Lance of Longinus (named after Saint Longinus), the Spear of Destiny, or the Holy Spear, according to the Gospel of John, is the lance that pierced the side of Jesus as he hung on the cross). - the great wiki. It can't be the athame Lea got because Amoracchius is the athame's equivalent. The items from Hades' vault had the same power, but much more of it than the Swords.
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