The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Molly
Mr. Death:
--- Quote from: Arjan on October 29, 2018, 06:27:49 AM ---That is said. But what is shown is more complicated than what is said, both for some humans as for some monsters.
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What I think it comes down to is that some monsters are more human than others, and some humans are more monstrous than others.
Mira:
--- Quote from: Mr. Death on October 29, 2018, 02:00:20 PM ---What I think it comes down to is that some monsters are more human than others, and some humans are more monstrous than others.
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So true...
Arjan:
--- Quote from: Mr. Death on October 28, 2018, 11:08:15 PM ---Sure, Molly could have walked away from Harry. She could have done so in Proven Guilty, too. It would probably have ended badly for her, Harry and a number of other people, but that is still a choice she had.
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You can always fall on your sword. Usually people only consider suicidal choices if nothing better is available and we have seen in Ghost story that it was the suicidal choice that actually caused a lot of problems.
--- Quote ---Lea might not have "given" Molly a choice, but that does not mean that Molly didn't have a choice. Lea is not inclined to tell Molly of alternatives -- if Molly can't figure that out on her own, that's Molly's problem, from Lea's perspective.
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Lea could call the servitors to attack Molly to check her progress. Test her shields with knifes and just attack her. She could litterarily force her and she did, that is what was shown in Ghost Story. She did not just make it seem like, she did. And she got that power and obligation because of Harry.
--- Quote ---Just because other choices might have negative consequences (immediate or otherwise) or might not be laid out explicitly for you by someone who has negative incentive to tell you about other choices doesn't mean that the choice isn't there.
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If an option has a clear negative outcome it tends to be disregarded. I am not talking about choices given by Lea, Molly is smart enough to look at her own options. I am talking about the options open to her that have any realistic chance to end well.
--- Quote ---Nah. All Carlos has to do is say, "Come on, guys, I spoke to Michael already and he said Molly wasn't there, I don't have to go back and bother that poor family again and again."
Lea's good at making you think there isn't a choice.
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Until somebody else from the white council sees her there and informs people.
--- Quote ---Just like Mab made Harry think he didn't have a choice ... until Uriel whispered in his ear.
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Just because Mab sometimes operates that way does not mean they always do.
--- Quote ---Again: Mab and Lea both benefit greatly from Molly and Harry thinking they have them over a barrel without any choice in the matter. It's in Mab and Lea's interest to make it seem as if they don't have a choice, but Harry clearly does, so I don't see why Molly wouldn't either.
Think about it -- how many times did Lash try to make it seem like Harry had no choice but to accept power from her?
Someone with an agenda telling you that you don't have a choice doesn't mean it's true
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Again it is not about what Lea or Mab was telling to Molly. It is about the choices she actually had. There is a great difference.
--- Quote ----- it means they benefit from you not choosing differently.
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That is fine for them but this is about what choices would benefit Molly.
--- Quote ---Molly made no deals with Fae. She didn't even swear on her power as far as we know.
How is Lea going to force her to learn? Is she going to mess with Molly's mind to make her more pliable? Well, that ruins any point in teaching her because you're scrambling her brain. Ditto with threatening to kill her.
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She will send lessons her way like she did with the servitors. She even combined it with a lesson for Harry. She is very good in that sort of thing.
--- Quote ---In reality? Lea has no leverage to "force" Molly to do anything. Molly has choices -- there is always a choice -- but her guilt and Lea's manipulation put her in denial
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There are probably oaths involved in the apprenticeship and certainly heavy obligations. These were not oaths sworn to any Sidhe at all but Mab was bound to it.
That means Lea was bound to the full obligation Harry had to Molly as Mab would interpret it. This can not be just the obligation to give some free lessons.
Lea could not leave Molly alone and that means she could and would have followed her everywhere. Easy for Lea.
Mr. Death:
--- Quote from: Arjan on October 29, 2018, 10:15:21 PM ---You can always fall on your sword. Usually people only consider suicidal choices if nothing better is available and we have seen in Ghost story that it was the suicidal choice that actually caused a lot of problems.
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Like I said -- it was a choice. Bad choices are still choices, and if Molly had decided to tell Harry to screw off, there isn't anything he could have done to make her take his tutelage.
--- Quote ---Lea could call the servitors to attack Molly to check her progress. Test her shields with knifes and just attack her. She could litterarily force her and she did, that is what was shown in Ghost Story. She did not just make it seem like, she did. And she got that power and obligation because of Harry.
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And if Molly is staying at the BFS building, which has a threshold and a crapload of Einherjar to defend the place? Or if she's staying at her parents' house, and replace the Einherjar with angels? She could only "force" Molly to do anything because Molly eliminated her other choices herself.
The other thing? As Harry points out, among the obligations Lea took on from Harry are to protect and take care of Molly, which is why I think she'd hold back from actually killing her or bringing her real harm.
--- Quote ---If an option has a clear negative outcome it tends to be disregarded. I am not talking about choices given by Lea, Molly is smart enough to look at her own options. I am talking about the options open to her that have any realistic chance to end well.
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You are talking about choices Lea gave Molly:
--- Quote from: You ---It seems to me extremely likely that Lea did not give Molly that much of a choice.
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And Molly is smart enough? When she's half brain-fried from malnutrition and she's on the Self-Flagellation Express? Molly post Changes is very much not a Molly who's in charge of all her critical thinking and objective, rational thought faculties.
She's not calmly laying out all her options and rationally deciding on the best course of action. She's crippled with guilt because she just murdered the man she loves and she probably feels like she deserves all the crap Lea puts on her.
--- Quote ---Until somebody else from the white council sees her there and informs people.
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Remember the part about how the Fomor are only a big presence in Chicago because there isn't a White Council presence? Seriously, that's a whole thing, that things are so bad because there aren't wizards there, and the one that bothers showing up is Carlos.
--- Quote ---Just because Mab sometimes operates that way does not mean they always do.
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Yeah, it's not like Mab sets the tone for her kingdom, or like Lea is explicitly taking Mab's role for the sake of acting in Mab's place the way Mab would or anything.
Mab isn't unique in that respect. That's what all faeries do, it's how they get you into those deals.
I mean, let's look at Lea herself. Her "deal" with Harry to give him power to beat HWWB... which amounted to a magic feather and getting Harry to swear to give himself over to her. Harry absolutely had a choice there, considering Lea's "help" didn't actually do anything tangible, but she certainly didn't put it that way, now did she?
--- Quote ---Again it is not about what Lea or Mab was telling to Molly. It is about the choices she actually had. There is a great difference.
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Yeah. They weren't telling her she had any options, so in her guilt-riddled mind, she assumed there weren't any, or explicitly rejected the ones she was aware of.
--- Quote ---That is fine for them but this is about what choices would benefit Molly.
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Yes, like opening up to her friends and allies and seeking shelter from people not grooming her for a job that will eventually eat away at her soul.
Choices that she has, but doesn't realize she has or has rejected because she's racked with guilt.
--- Quote ---She will send lessons her way like she did with the servitors. She even combined it with a lesson for Harry. She is very good in that sort of thing.
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Again: I'd like to see her try it when Molly's at the BFS or her parents' house.
--- Quote ---There are probably oaths involved in the apprenticeship and certainly heavy obligations. These were not oaths sworn to any Sidhe at all but Mab was bound to it.
That means Lea was bound to the full obligation Harry had to Molly as Mab would interpret it. This can not be just the obligation to give some free lessons.
Lea could not leave Molly alone and that means she could and would have followed her everywhere. Easy for Lea.
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Mab was bound to her vassal's obligations.
If Molly walks away and declares she's no longer Harry's apprentice, it's no longer Mab's obligation. Molly is an adult with free will, and she absolutely has other choices besides starving, sleeping in the snow and letting Lea throw knives at her.
She's just not in a place where she sees those choices, and Lea is not going to go out of her way to let her newest plaything think she actually has a choice in the matter.
morriswalters:
--- Quote from: forumghost on October 29, 2018, 06:12:17 AM ---No. Only humans so, Faeries and other Monsters do not, this is explicitly in the text.
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I assume this is a response for me. Here's the WOJ.
--- Quote from: Jim Butcher ---Mab, for example, is Mab. She /can’t/ show up and suddenly be merciful, generous, patient and kind. It would never so much as occur to her to do so, because it isn’t a fundamental part of her nature, and she /can’t/ choose to change it. She simply isn’t capable. She doesn’t have free will in the same way that people do. It’s related to the difference between having a soul and not having a soul, as well. Without a soul, you aren’t free to choose how you will shape that soul. You just stay what you are.
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A couple of observations.
1. Despite JB's quote Mab shows regret as well as compassion on Demonreach.
2. Mab had a soul since at one point she was mortal. And Molly had a soul, at least until she got hung with the Mantle. So the question wouldn't seem to be, did she make a choice to accept the Lady's Mantle? The question might more rightly be, did the Mantle remove her ability to make the choice to keep her soul?
If the second Uriel would seem to have cause to set the situation right. You can ask a similar question about Mab.(well at least I can, YMMV.) So, is it possible that Molly can remain true to herself and fulfill the obligations to the Mantle at the same time? And if she can, will she keep her soul?
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