The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Molly
peregrine:
Having things done to you does not violate any Free Will. Otherwise Uriel would be able to intervene literally every time the Denarians killed anybody. Likewise being forced to become a Queen doesn't violate your Free Will. Any issues with connections to the fae courts/bargains/consent are fae issues, not free will issues.
Mr. Death:
--- Quote from: Arjan on October 28, 2018, 07:47:17 PM ---A few points.
Harry meets Lea and Molly in Ghost Story. Read the rest of the conversation. It seems to me extremely likely that Lea did not give Molly that much of a choice. The white councils arrangements are probably extremely strict and archaic especially with a proven warlock and Lea would have had the powers Harry had over Molly and that was life and dead. Harry was not supposed to let a warlock run away, he was supposed to teach her to become not a warlock or to kill her. According to Lea his kindness had not been good for her and Lea acted accordingly.
It was not just about giving help. It was about all the obligations Harry had and some of those were not that nice. Remember Molly could not just have walked away from Harry either. Yes he offered in turncoat but I think he was breaking the rules. This is not the same as getting some swimming lessons from a guy who lives next door.
--- End quote ---
Sure, Molly could have walked away from Harry. She could have done so in Proven Guilty, too. It would probably have ended badly for her, Harry and a number of other people, but that is still a choice she had.
Lea might not have "given" Molly a choice, but that does not mean that Molly didn't have a choice. Lea is not inclined to tell Molly of alternatives -- if Molly can't figure that out on her own, that's Molly's problem, from Lea's perspective.
Just because other choices might have negative consequences (immediate or otherwise) or might not be laid out explicitly for you by someone who has negative incentive to tell you about other choices doesn't mean that the choice isn't there.
--- Quote ---Molly could not hide with her parents because that would make it too easy for Carlos to find her and that would blow any plausible deniability Carlos had. The same for Murphy actually.
--- End quote ---
Nah. All Carlos has to do is say, "Come on, guys, I spoke to Michael already and he said Molly wasn't there, I don't have to go back and bother that poor family again and again."
--- Quote ---You can teach people who do not want to learn if you are prepared to force it upon them. Lea is very good at that. She was exactly doing that in Ghost Story.
--- End quote ---
Lea's good at making you think there isn't a choice.
Just like Mab made Harry think he didn't have a choice ... until Uriel whispered in his ear.
Again: Mab and Lea both benefit greatly from Molly and Harry thinking they have them over a barrel without any choice in the matter. It's in Mab and Lea's interest to make it seem as if they don't have a choice, but Harry clearly does, so I don't see why Molly wouldn't either.
Think about it -- how many times did Lash try to make it seem like Harry had no choice but to accept power from her?
Someone with an agenda telling you that you don't have a choice doesn't mean it's true -- it means they benefit from you not choosing differently.
--- Quote ---And she could do so because of deals Molly had made with Harry, because of the authority Harry was given over her to save her life.
--- End quote ---
Molly made no deals with Fae. She didn't even swear on her power as far as we know.
How is Lea going to force her to learn? Is she going to mess with Molly's mind to make her more pliable? Well, that ruins any point in teaching her because you're scrambling her brain. Ditto with threatening to kill her.
In reality? Lea has no leverage to "force" Molly to do anything. Molly has choices -- there is always a choice -- but her guilt and Lea's manipulation put her in denial
morriswalters:
I notice that people only talk about fairness when bad things happen.
To answer the question for Molly, first answer the question for Mab. Mother Summer has told Harry the stakes. You have read Harry's description of the battlefield at the gates. And if you have read Cold Case you have read the cost to Winter to fight that war. Does Mab have free will?
forumghost:
No. Only humans so, Faeries and other Monsters do not, this is explicitly in the text.
Arjan:
--- Quote from: forumghost on October 29, 2018, 06:12:17 AM ---No. Only humans so, Faeries and other Monsters do not, this is explicitly in the text.
--- End quote ---
That is said. But what is shown is more complicated than what is said, both for some humans as for some monsters.
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