The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Molly
Mr. Death:
Point of clarification: Molly's choice leading to her being the Winter Lady wasn't just "Be nearby when Maeve kicked."
She'd spent most of a year working with Lea, becoming more like Lea (i.e., more like a fae) the whole time -- slightly unhinged, enigmatic, avoiding her friends and family. Lea was grooming her, likely at Mab's direction, for the possibility.
Molly may not have known the consequences of her choice to continue associating with Lea, but she still made that choice.
Further, she made the choice to accept effective citizenship with the Svartalves -- i.e., Molly chose to become the member of a faerie nation.
She could have chosen differently -- she could have taken up her friends' offers for shelter and help instead.
Did she make an affirmative, informed decision to become the Winter Lady? No. But she made choices -- consistently over the course of several months -- that put her on, and kept her on, the path to becoming the Winter Lady.
Carl:
--- Quote from: Mr. Death on October 26, 2018, 03:57:16 PM ---Point of clarification: Molly's choice leading to her being the Winter Lady wasn't just "Be nearby when Maeve kicked."
She'd spent most of a year working with Lea, becoming more like Lea (i.e., more like a fae) the whole time -- slightly unhinged, enigmatic, avoiding her friends and family. Lea was grooming her, likely at Mab's direction, for the possibility.
Molly may not have known the consequences of her choice to continue associating with Lea, but she still made that choice.
Further, she made the choice to accept effective citizenship with the Svartalves -- i.e., Molly chose to become the member of a faerie nation.
She could have chosen differently -- she could have taken up her friends' offers for shelter and help instead.
Did she make an affirmative, informed decision to become the Winter Lady? No. But she made choices -- consistently over the course of several months -- that put her on, and kept her on, the path to becoming the Winter Lady.
--- End quote ---
Bearing in mind what mab had to say later there zero chance what Molly wanted would have had any effect on Lea. She was subbing for Mab in Subbing for Harry while he was incapacitated. Unless Molly figured that out and effectively quit out of being Harry's apprentice Lea was never going to leave Molly alone unless someone made her, and who exactly is there who could have done that?
Your also making a major assumption that Molly's reaction to people trying to help her was A) in any way a a free willed choice, B) would have worked out any better. Frankly without Lea running interference and her active hiding i doubt even Ramirez could have kept her from getting hunted down by the WC. And given human psychology, Lea's no doubt knowledge of it, Molly's emotional state and the general fae willingness to manipulate could have completely taken free will out of the equation. But since that Trauma was basically >90% a result of the manipulation of Harry it may be indirect enough of a way to take Uriel out of the can act picture. In fact that was my interpretation of the whole plot uriel pulled off in ghost story. Some aspect prevents him directly interfering, but somthing about the situation is off enough he can't act directly, (or it could just been the Fae Courts jobs means he's not allowed to interfere regardless of rules violations), so he has to work indirectly.
You could argue this was all a consequence of her decision to become Harry's apprentice, but you can't keep passing the buck back for forevermore, there comes a point at which it becomes inherently stupid because it requires someone to make a completely nonsensical decision that no normal mentally stable person is going to make because the whole point of being a normal mentally stable person is that our psychology is setup so that we cannot make such nonsensical decisions, our brain is inherently wired to disregard them. Hell even a not mentally stable person in most cases has a defined decision making limit set that constrains the decisions within their mental processes they're actually capable of making, (some mental disorders aside ofc).
That said as far as Mollys current will. Consider she can still go onto the Carpenter Property no issues. If she was bound by all the usual winter fae nastiness stuff there is no way in hell the guards would let her in, family or not.
Arjan:
--- Quote from: Carl on October 27, 2018, 07:33:59 PM ---Bearing in mind what mab had to say later there zero chance what Molly wanted would have had any effect on Lea. She was subbing for Mab in Subbing for Harry while he was incapacitated. Unless Molly figured that out and effectively quit out of being Harry's apprentice Lea was never going to leave Molly alone unless someone made her, and who exactly is there who could have done that?
Your also making a major assumption that Molly's reaction to people trying to help her was A) in any way a a free willed choice, B) would have worked out any better. Frankly without Lea running interference and her active hiding i doubt even Ramirez could have kept her from getting hunted down by the WC. And given human psychology, Lea's no doubt knowledge of it, Molly's emotional state and the general fae willingness to manipulate could have completely taken free will out of the equation. But since that Trauma was basically >90% a result of the manipulation of Harry it may be indirect enough of a way to take Uriel out of the can act picture. In fact that was my interpretation of the whole plot uriel pulled off in ghost story. Some aspect prevents him directly interfering, but somthing about the situation is off enough he can't act directly, (or it could just been the Fae Courts jobs means he's not allowed to interfere regardless of rules violations), so he has to work indirectly.
You could argue this was all a consequence of her decision to become Harry's apprentice, but you can't keep passing the buck back for forevermore, there comes a point at which it becomes inherently stupid because it requires someone to make a completely nonsensical decision that no normal mentally stable person is going to make because the whole point of being a normal mentally stable person is that our psychology is setup so that we cannot make such nonsensical decisions, our brain is inherently wired to disregard them. Hell even a not mentally stable person in most cases has a defined decision making limit set that constrains the decisions within their mental processes they're actually capable of making, (some mental disorders aside ofc).
That said as far as Mollys current will. Consider she can still go onto the Carpenter Property no issues. If she was bound by all the usual winter fae nastiness stuff there is no way in hell the guards would let her in, family or not.
--- End quote ---
They will let Mab in. She is after all no danger. She will behave like a proper guest.
Mr. Death:
--- Quote from: Carl on October 27, 2018, 07:33:59 PM ---Bearing in mind what mab had to say later there zero chance what Molly wanted would have had any effect on Lea. She was subbing for Mab in Subbing for Harry while he was incapacitated. Unless Molly figured that out and effectively quit out of being Harry's apprentice Lea was never going to leave Molly alone unless someone made her, and who exactly is there who could have done that?
--- End quote ---
Harry straight up told Molly to seek out Ebenezer. She could have done that. Instead, mainly out of guilt, she let herself live like a hobo and work under Lea instead.
--- Quote ---Your also making a major assumption that Molly's reaction to people trying to help her was A) in any way a a free willed choice,
--- End quote ---
Multiple characters in Ghost Story offer Molly a place to stay and shower and get herself together. She outright refuses. Seems like a free-willed choice to me.
--- Quote --- B) would have worked out any better.
--- End quote ---
It probably wouldn't have ended with her being Winter Lady.
--- Quote ---Frankly without Lea running interference and her active hiding i doubt even Ramirez could have kept her from getting hunted down by the WC.
--- End quote ---
Ramirez was the sum total of the White Council's "efforts" to hunt down Molly, and he straight up admits to her in Cold Case that he was not really bothering. He wasn't hindering others from hunting her down -- he was the one tasked with hunting her down, and he went, "Oh, yeah, sure, top of my list wink wink."
--- Quote ---And given human psychology, Lea's no doubt knowledge of it, Molly's emotional state and the general fae willingness to manipulate could have completely taken free will out of the equation. But since that Trauma was basically >90% a result of the manipulation of Harry it may be indirect enough of a way to take Uriel out of the can act picture. In fact that was my interpretation of the whole plot uriel pulled off in ghost story. Some aspect prevents him directly interfering, but somthing about the situation is off enough he can't act directly, (or it could just been the Fae Courts jobs means he's not allowed to interfere regardless of rules violations), so he has to work indirectly.
--- End quote ---
Whether or not someone took advantage of her emotional issues, she still had a choice.
She could have gone to Harry's friends and allies and taken shelter there, or she could've gone murderhobo and studied under Lea.
She chose the latter.
--- Quote ---That said as far as Mollys current will. Consider she can still go onto the Carpenter Property no issues. If she was bound by all the usual winter fae nastiness stuff there is no way in hell the guards would let her in, family or not.
--- End quote ---
Remember what Cait Sith said.
As long as a Faerie doesn't mean or cause harm, they can cross through a threshold no problem.
morriswalters:
I question if someone who appears to be suffering from severe PTSD can make good choices. Since Molly acted for "love" of Harry, Uriel couldn't intervene to help her. And one of the symptoms of PTSD is avoidance of friends. The only way to help her was to help Harry. And he could help Harry because a fallen had influenced Harry's choice.
You can argue that Mab was responsible for Molly not crossing the line into Black Magic, since she had to act as Harry would have because of the nature of her responsibility. As evil as Harry paints her, she keeps her word.
Forgive me if I'm wrong, but isn't this what Ghost Story was about? About how our choices can both help and hurt those around us.
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