The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Molly
peregrine:
Who says they were good choices? Bad choices are choices still.
Carl:
--- Quote from: Mr. Death on October 27, 2018, 10:07:31 PM ---Harry straight up told Molly to seek out Ebenezer. She could have done that. Instead, mainly out of guilt, she let herself live like a hobo and work under Lea instead.
Multiple characters in Ghost Story offer Molly a place to stay and shower and get herself together. She outright refuses. Seems like a free-willed choice to me.
It probably wouldn't have ended with her being Winter Lady.
Ramirez was the sum total of the White Council's "efforts" to hunt down Molly, and he straight up admits to her in Cold Case that he was not really bothering. He wasn't hindering others from hunting her down -- he was the one tasked with hunting her down, and he went, "Oh, yeah, sure, top of my list wink wink."
Whether or not someone took advantage of her emotional issues, she still had a choice.
She could have gone to Harry's friends and allies and taken shelter there, or she could've gone murderhobo and studied under Lea.
She chose the latter.
Remember what Cait Sith said.
As long as a Faerie doesn't mean or cause harm, they can cross through a threshold no problem.
--- End quote ---
Multiple points.
1. Your making a key assumption here. That someone in a sufficiently fragile state is capable of making certain choices. One of the big things about many types of psychological disorder, (and the kind of state Molly was in in GS definitely counts), is that they're quite literally incapable of doing certain things or not doing others because they've got a hard psychological block in place as a result of their disorder. Given Mollys state at the end of GS the odds that she doesn't have some somwhere are virtually nil. For somthing to be the result of a free willed choice there has to be choices the individual is actually capable of making that produce different end results.
2. Ramirez in CC explicitly says he spoked operations by other wardens against her. Are you seriously telling me he managed to spoke every single op they mounted?
3. I'm talking about the angelic Guardians, not the threshold, there's no question that Grey would have meant no harm, but because of what he is they'd still have been obligated to stop him if he'd tried to come in.
Arjan:
--- Quote from: Mr. Death on October 27, 2018, 10:07:31 PM ---Harry straight up told Molly to seek out Ebenezer. She could have done that. Instead, mainly out of guilt, she let herself live like a hobo and work under Lea instead.
--- End quote ---
Harry was deceiving himself to make his choice to abandon Molly easier and Molly might even have picked up on it. The Merlin wanted her dead and Ebenezar who was barely able to save his grandson would not have taken more risk for a girl he did not know.
--- Quote ---Multiple characters in Ghost Story offer Molly a place to stay and shower and get herself together. She outright refuses. Seems like a free-willed choice to me.
--- End quote ---
Every choice you make is free willed and somehow influences your fate even if it is based on wrong information in this case an overestimation of the white councils effort to look for her. It was also based on mental instability which became better after ghost story as we see in bomb shells. She did take showers at Butters.
--- Quote ---It probably wouldn't have ended with her being Winter Lady.
--- End quote ---
If you prefer dead warlock above that, I do not.
If you prefer being dead to save your soul above the duty of defending reality your soul is not really saved either. It is like seeking salvation at the cost of everyone you know, it does not work. It is actually one of the lessons of ghost story and Molly’s burden is just biggen than Harry’s.
I am not sure it is bad either, just different. I do not see Uriel in tears over her and he was concerned in ghost story. Concerned enough to arrange ghost story partly for her which is a waste if she was already doomed.
--- Quote ---Ramirez was the sum total of the White Council's "efforts" to hunt down Molly, and he straight up admits to her in Cold Case that he was not really bothering. He wasn't hindering others from hunting her down -- he was the one tasked with hunting her down, and he went, "Oh, yeah, sure, top of my list wink wink."
Whether or not someone took advantage of her emotional issues, she still had a choice.
--- End quote ---
Or you are just a victim of someone else’s choices. Free will does not even guarantee the possibility of good outcomes. It might guaranty the possibility of keeping your conscience clear but I am not sure of that either.
--- Quote ---She could have gone to Harry's friends and allies and taken shelter there, or she could've gone murderhobo and studied under Lea.
--- End quote ---
Lea would have forced her to study under Lea. She was practically doing so when Harry met them in ghost story. She had the duty to do so and an apprentice running away from her duties is hardly a reason to stop teaching her? Lea does not get rid of her duties that easily.
--- Quote ---She chose the latter.
--- End quote ---
She chose to cooperate. People make all sort of choices without knowing the consequences.
And it might have been the best choice at that moment. People make all kind of choices that influence their lives but other people do so as well. In thuis case Harry’s choice to kill himself and to involve Molly in it did far more damage than Uriel could fix with seven words and some non intervention.
--- Quote ---Remember what Cait Sith said.
As long as a Faerie doesn't mean or cause harm, they can cross through a threshold no problem.
--- End quote ---
There are fairies living in the carpenters house, they are making shoes. Mab can walk in without any problem and if Charity is smart she just makes tea for her. The Sidhe seem to live outside the whole heaven-hell thing, they have other duties.
Arjan:
--- Quote from: Carl on October 28, 2018, 06:48:25 AM ---Multiple points.
1. Your making a key assumption here. That someone in a sufficiently fragile state is capable of making certain choices. One of the big things about many types of psychological disorder, (and the kind of state Molly was in in GS definitely counts), is that they're quite literally incapable of doing certain things or not doing others because they've got a hard psychological block in place as a result of their disorder. Given Mollys state at the end of GS the odds that she doesn't have some somwhere are virtually nil. For somthing to be the result of a free willed choice there has to be choices the individual is actually capable of making that produce different end results.
--- End quote ---
That is your interpretation of free will. In my interpretation nobody has complete free will anyway and the only thing that matters is if somebody had enough of it to be held responsible for his choices and of these choices had enough influence to make her (partly) responsible for the outcome.
Angels tend to be quite harsh on both accounts.
--- Quote ---2. Ramirez in CC explicitly says he spoked operations by other wardens against her. Are you seriously telling me he managed to spoke every single op they mounted?
--- End quote ---
He warned her via Murphy and told her to hide, not explicitly but clear enough. he knew what he was telling Murphy would have been told to Molly and he did not have to tell Murphy. Ramirez saw no way to save Molly inside the council. He used the power he had and could not have done anything more.
--- Quote ---3. I'm talking about the angelic Guardians, not the threshold, there's no question that Grey would have meant no harm, but because of what he is they'd still have been obligated to stop him if he'd tried to come in.
--- End quote ---
Grey is the equivalent of a scion of a fallen angel. He is half fallen. And Uriel had to think about it and did not give Harry an answer, he was glad he did not have to answer that question. Grey is a completely different case because he is more involved in the conflict between heaven and hell.
Uriel had no problem with Molly in the house. Besides the angels are not there to interfere with free will. The Carpenters can probably invite everyone they want. There are big holes in that defense system.
Avernite:
--- Quote from: Mr. Death on October 26, 2018, 03:57:16 PM ---Point of clarification: Molly's choice leading to her being the Winter Lady wasn't just "Be nearby when Maeve kicked."
She'd spent most of a year working with Lea, becoming more like Lea (i.e., more like a fae) the whole time -- slightly unhinged, enigmatic, avoiding her friends and family. Lea was grooming her, likely at Mab's direction, for the possibility.
Molly may not have known the consequences of her choice to continue associating with Lea, but she still made that choice.
Further, she made the choice to accept effective citizenship with the Svartalves -- i.e., Molly chose to become the member of a faerie nation.
She could have chosen differently -- she could have taken up her friends' offers for shelter and help instead.
Did she make an affirmative, informed decision to become the Winter Lady? No. But she made choices -- consistently over the course of several months -- that put her on, and kept her on, the path to becoming the Winter Lady.
--- End quote ---
This would be a good argument, except the Harry/Uriel convo pretty much mentions Molly as having been harmed by the Fallen breaking the rules. And from that talk it seems this was not so much free choice as not-impossible-to-correct-later-by-free-choice.
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