The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Is it possible to kill a WC Hunger Demon?
Wizard Sibelis:
--- Quote from: Arjan on July 19, 2018, 04:47:29 PM ---It is obviously not a bacterie or a virus, we are talking magic here. IT is a spiritual infection Just like nemesis is a spiritual infection.
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But not a parasite then, an infection, a disease?
--- Quote ---Blood is not enough to carry it over but ask Susan about it.
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Now what kind of advice is that lol? Have YOU asked her?
--- Quote ---The vampires see those who they infected and turned (taken over) as their children, that was mentioned several times. Normal parent child relations are not mentioned.
Another word for spiritual infection is of course possession though the relation between the resident spirit and the invading one does not have to be that straightforward and there all the different parasite and symbiotic possibilities appear.
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and I say a infectious disease which changes the host into a new form isn't the same as a parasite that attaches itself to you and more or less want's to supplant you entirely. The Reds are not the inhuman replacements the Blacks are, the Hunger fuses to and changes them, in that way it was originally more symbiotic, but I doubt it has any differential from the transformed vampire.... Mmm I think in that way the Full Ramp is the result of what by Bob might be described as 'the afterlife' of spirit and soul fusing into a new form, except it somehow co-opts the one murdered for the transformation instead. Letting the original victim continue to be considered part of the mortal plane.. A parasite would rightfully consume the host first and not look for another to use as the catalyst.
*however, nothing about Arianna screamed transformed bloodline, Cause then calling her daughter at all is oxymoronic, all the tier lower than him would be his primary children, and ergo applicable somewhere in story to be mentioned, not some upstart who hadn't made it that far yet. She was young for a monster.
Arjan:
--- Quote from: Wizard Sibelis on July 19, 2018, 05:37:46 PM ---But not a parasite then, an infection, a disease?
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You can be infected with a parasite. And what it is depends also on how you look at it.
Malaria for example is an ilness and you get infected when a musquito bites you but what enters your blood stream is a parasite.
Language is a wonder sometimes.
--- Quote ---Now what kind of advice is that lol? Have YOU asked her?
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No but I have read a lot about her so I can imagine what she would say.
--- Quote ---and I say a infectious disease
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An infectuous disease is a disease that can infect, that spread via infection.
--- Quote ---which changes the host into a new form
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An illness can have so many symptoms...
--- Quote ---isn't the same as a parasite that attaches itself to you and more or less want's to supplant you entirely.
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Most parasites just want to live their lives feeding on yoy. You dying is a side effect.
--- Quote ---The Reds are not the inhuman replacements the Blacks are, the Hunger fuses to and changes them, in that way it was originally more symbiotic,
--- End quote ---
I don't see it that way because it sterilizes the host and spreads not horizontally by generation but vertically. If you view procreation as essential human activity then the reds have lost what makes them human.
--- Quote ---but I doubt it has any differential from the transformed vampire.... Mmm I think in that way the Full Ramp is the result of what by Bob might be described as 'the afterlife' of spirit and soul fusing into a new form, except it somehow co-opts the one murdered for the transformation instead. Letting the original victim continue to be considered part of the mortal plane.. A parasite would rightfully consume the host first and not look for another to use as the catalyst.
*however, nothing about Arianna screamed transformed bloodline, Cause then calling her daughter at all is oxymoronic, all the tier lower than him would be his primary children, and ergo applicable somewhere in story to be mentioned, not some upstart who hadn't made it that far yet. She was young for a monster.
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The bloodline curse actually proves it. The vampire hosts were not related with each other at least not all of them but they are all spiritually related through the infection and transformation.
The vampire part in the half vampires was also related, not the human part. the bloodline curse followed infection not birth when used on vampires.
That is how red court vampirism spreads so it is logical to call those you turn and infect your children, spiritually they are. Much more than your human children you might have had before your infection and later turning.
groinkick:
I don't see the Red Court as a spiritual infection. When they rip their human flesh off to attack it pretty much shows that their human parts are just suits. They aren't human anymore. The essence of the human remains but they are much more vampire than human... They are more like monsters with nice human suits. The White Court is more like a spiritual infection. Their bodies are basically human that are augmented with increased capabilities.
I'd say the Red's are more like an virus that rewrites your DNA, and mutates your entire body into something else. I'd say the Blood Line curse was good evidence of this. The humans they once were are not related but the vampire side came from a single source, and the rewriting of their DNA made them all related. The White Court is more like a parasite that is attached to your spirit from the NeverNever.
Wizard Sibelis:
--- Quote from: Arjan on July 19, 2018, 06:34:52 PM ---You can be infected with a parasite. And what it is depends also on how you look at it.
Malaria for example is an ilness and you get infected when a musquito bites you but what enters your blood stream is a parasite.
Language is a wonder sometimes.No but I have read a lot about her so I can imagine what she would say.
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So your expert witness is any greater than mine? this isn't a standpoint, and her opinion isn't even an issue to the facts anyway.... Never would be.
--- Quote ---An infectuous disease is a disease that can infect, that spread via infection.An illness can have so many symptoms...Most parasites just want to live their lives feeding on yoy. You dying is a side effect. I don't see it that way because it sterilizes the host and spreads not horizontally by generation but vertically.
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No citable proof. Indeed, why wouldn't it then sterilize with the initial infection making Maggie an impossibility? Saying the bats can't successfully mate with a human is entirely different from being able to propagate within a species anyway... and nothing I know of says this.
--- Quote --- If you view procreation as essential human activity then the reds have lost what makes them human.The bloodline curse actually proves it. The vampire hosts were not related with each other at least not all of them but they are all spiritually related through the infection and transformation.
--- End quote ---
Some may have been? So they could mate but it's negligible somehow now?
--- Quote ---The vampire part in the half vampires was also related, not the human part. the bloodline curse followed infection not birth when used on vampires.
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Oh yes, and despite the fact the halves only had the spirit of a demon, and the reds transformed entirely it still targeted both, by blood. This is more proof towards it being a full transformation, and in no way says they can't mate... however you can't say it didn't follow the 'birthed' because that's exactly how it was put, and that again, doesn't address if they had natural births or how those familial relations effect the concurrent effect of using a bloodline curse upon the reds.
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That is how red court vampirism spreads so it is logical to call those you turn and infect your children, spiritually they are. Much more than your human children you might have had before your infection and later turning.
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And still says nothing on proving Reds cannot mate or Ariana was not his biological daughter... doesn't really refute the point, Ramps are a contagion not a parasitic(or symbiotic) creature... well THEY are a parasitic creature but not internally.
vultur:
--- Quote from: Wizard Sibelis on July 19, 2018, 05:37:46 PM ---and I say a infectious disease which changes the host into a new form isn't the same as a parasite that attaches itself to you and more or less want's to supplant you entirely. The Reds are not the inhuman replacements the Blacks are, the Hunger fuses to and changes them, in that way it was originally more symbiotic, but I doubt it has any differential from the transformed vampire.... Mmm I think in that way the Full Ramp is the result of what by Bob might be described as 'the afterlife' of spirit and soul fusing into a new form, except it somehow co-opts the one murdered for the transformation instead. Letting the original victim continue to be considered part of the mortal plane..
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I think that's about right. But I don't think it's mutually exclusive with the parasite analogy... although a Rampire infection is, IMO, technically more equivalent to a parasitoid (fatal to host... like a caterpillar-eating wasp larva, or the xenomorphs from the Alien series). The infection grows within the human host, and at "maturity" (when the infected makes their first fatal feeding) it matures into an adult Rampire, consuming the human host and using its material (likely both physical matter and spiritual energy) to build its new full-Rampire form.
--- Quote ---*however, nothing about Arianna screamed transformed bloodline, Cause then calling her daughter at all is oxymoronic, all the tier lower than him would be his primary children, and ergo applicable somewhere in story to be mentioned, not some upstart who hadn't made it that far yet. She was young for a monster.
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Rampire parent-child relations have to be infection/turning-based, not conventional reproduction-based, otherwise the Bloodline Curse wouldn't have worked with Susan... Susan wasn't the biological child of any Rampire. And the chain went from Susan to her infection-parent Bianca, to hers (Ortega), to his (Arianna), to the Red King.
Arianna was directly turned by the Red King... so were the Lords of Outer Night (the ones one tier below him). There just weren't enough positions on the Lords of Outer Night for all his direct infection-offspring.
(And I don't think there is any reason to think Arianna is young as Rampires go... Luccio calls her older than writing. The RK is said somewhere, maybe Proven Guilty, to be 4000 years old. Technically that's inconsistent, as writing is more than 4000 years old, but if Luccio just means writing in the New World/Mesoamerica, which is likely, Arianna is still 2500+. There's no reason she couldn't have been turned in the Red King's early years as a vampire... we don't even know that positions on the Lords of Outer Night were given out based on age, Arianna might be just as old as them but lost out because of lesser power or the Red King's whims or something else.)
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