The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Love Potion, Huge Violation of 3rd Law?
Wizard Sibelis:
--- Quote from: Mira on August 07, 2018, 08:47:03 PM --- Well, if a person unknowingly drinks a love potion, that is transforming someone against their will. One may consent or accept a drink, but would one consent if one knew there was something in it to make them do what he or she didn't want to do?
--- End quote ---
DUDE, hold up, cause I have a woj from FB about not knowing the consequences of your choices is a fact of life. Note that the fae enchant food all the time too...
--- Quote from: Jim Butcher ---Jim Butcher Yeah, but all your choices count, man. Not just the ones where someone says, "Are you absolutely sure about your answer."
Making a choice is stating who you are. Unequivocally. You can talk as much as you want about whatever goodness you want--your actions are what matter. Those choices, in some cases to /take lives/, weren't subconscious.
Molly said, "I'm in line with Winter." A BUNCH of times. And making statements like that add up--not because you're initialing a point on a contract for a lawyer, but because you are /changing yourself/ by making choices like that.
Creating life, ending life. Those are the heaviest hitting choices, the ones that truly matter, the ones that are irrevocable.
Choosing not to be self-aware enough to own what you're doing is a choice as well. One Molly didn't make. She knew about bargains. She knew the score. She didn't know how deep was the water she was getting into, but she ran and jumped off the cliff.
--- End quote ---
In reply to if Molly made a subconscious matrix style choice when accepting the mantle.
Mr. Death:
--- Quote from: Paviel on August 07, 2018, 08:08:00 PM ---Molly never got tainted for what she did to Harry in "Changes," so clearly that wasn't nearly as bad as what she did to her friends in "Proven Guilty."
And the main difference, as far as I can see, is that Harry consented to what she did in "Changes."
--- End quote ---
How do we know she never got tainted? I mean, the next time we see her, she's clearly unhinged. Guilt has something to do with that, yes. But given we haven't seen her soulgazed again and there's no objective measurement, how can you definitively say what did and didn't taint her?
Also, another difference: What she did to Nelson was tainted by her anger. What she did to Harry was not.
Which is, come to think of it, another reason why even "benign" mind-reading or manipulation is extremely dangerous. Molly didn't know her own anger toward Nelson was driving him paranoid. Emotion has always, consistently been said to affect magic (Harry's fire is hotter when he's pissed off, for instance); so even if you got "consent" to muck about in someone's mind, being in a bad mood when you do it is like the surgeon's scalpel slipping because they're distracted.
--- Quote from: morriswalters on August 07, 2018, 08:19:04 PM ---Reread the part in Proven Guilty when Mouse gets shot. Reconcile what Harry tells Molly then, with what he asks of her in Changes.
--- End quote ---
Presuming you mean Turn Coat, there's still a mountain of context and situational differences between those two situations. In Changes, Harry is in complete despair and asking her to help him kill himself. He sees himself as either A. being enthralled to Mab or B. getting a bullet in the skull within 24 hours, so any negative effects of Molly's actions on him are sort of a non-issue.
It's definitely not a "blasé" situation, the whole context is one of Harry doing a number of things that he would never, ever even consider if he wasn't extremely desperate. He's at the Godzilla Threshold, he literally said he'd let the world (and Molly) burn to keep his daughter safe.
--- Quote ---I don't own the game so I'll leave it to you to take whatever you want away from it. However given that Molly had no formal training in Proven Guilty, than it is obvious to me that she did indeed read a mind by accident. If as a later poster has suggested that other minds are broadcasting than they need to shut their windows. :)
--- End quote ---
S'why I quoted the relevant bits.
"Accident" has nothing to do with whether she's formally trained or not -- it has to do with intent. Molly willfully, intentionally, with forethought and planning (she read books about it), went into Rosie and Nelson's minds. That is, by definition, not an accident.
--- Quote ---If your point is that the council would never use it, you have failed to convince me.
--- End quote ---
That is not a point I have made or attempted to make.
--- Quote ---To be honest I have no idea of what the stain is or how it works. For the purpose of avoiding headaches I treat it like Heroin. (click to show/hide)It may or may not addict you but the danger is there. And if your friend gives it to you and you haven't asked him to than he's a dick and guilty of black magic. If you ask him to than you are merely stupid but he is still a dick. In a practical sense this works.
--- End quote ---
We know that it affects the wizard in such a way that they feel compelled -- or, at least, justified -- in doing it again. Use magic to kill, and you're more likely to use it to kill again. Molly used mind magic? Well, we see several situations where her go-to solution is, "Use mind-magic again."
--- Quote from: Arjan on August 07, 2018, 08:35:48 PM ---It is very clear that only invading minds is forbidden, you can invite someone in your mind to do all kind of things except enthrallment, that has a seperate law.
--- End quote ---
The game book's write-up (a game that was composed by fans of the series with direct approval of Jim Butcher), makes it very clear that any mind reading is a violation in the bit I quoted.
And Molly isn't reading minds; she's feeling emotions. She's always been identified as an empath, not a telepath. She feels Harry's lust, but doesn't get any of the context, which is why she grossly misinterprets things and offers herself to her despite Harry clearly thinking very loudly how bad of an idea it is.
Even with Mouse, she says outright she's not reading his mind, but feeling his emotions and intentions; it's probably easier with dogs, they kinda wear all their emotions on their sleeves.
Wizard Sibelis:
Hearing Mouse speak solid words plan as day, isn't hearing an emotion... and it would seem the gate and lock that keeps thoughts inside our heads, you know, where we keep our emotions, must have a natural broadcaster for someone else to be the receiver without help... Mmmm. Guess we do have a entrance.
morriswalters:
--- Quote from: Mr. Death on August 07, 2018, 09:00:02 PM ---That is not a point I have made or attempted to make.
--- End quote ---
We have now cleared that up. :)
--- Quote from: Mr. Death on August 07, 2018, 09:00:02 PM ---
It's definitely not a "blasé" situation, the whole context is one of Harry doing a number of things that he would never, ever even consider if he wasn't extremely desperate. He's at the Godzilla Threshold, he literally said he'd let the world (and Molly) burn to keep his daughter safe.
S'why I quoted the relevant bits.
--- End quote ---
I lost track, Turn Coat it is. And let Molly burn he did. Which makes for good drama. But it makes Harry look like a self righteous ass. The whole next book is mostly about showing Harry that. Right and wrong doesn't change because you are under pressure.
There is no definitive way to say where the line is on mind magic. JB won't lay down the law, other than to say it is banned by the WC. However when it's convenient he will use it. When Elaine is under attack in White Knight, Harry not only hears her he hears the vampire. That's pretty far in without consent. Even if they had used the spell previously. Anyway I think this is moving off point. So I'll let it lay.
Wizard Sibelis:
Oh Morris, I'd straight forgotten about that, Harry and Elaine spent HOURS talking psychically in school without repercussion or mention of dark magic, even years later when Harry uses it to contact Elaine it's not an issue...
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