The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Love Potion, Huge Violation of 3rd Law?
peregrine:
Also Eb's communication stone. Though that could be something akin to the Merlin's "telepathy" which was just an illusion. Might not be quite so intrusive as actual mind to mind contact.
As for Elaine and the vampire, that could go towards the vampire "breaking down the door" to her psyche so its easier for him to get in.
Mira:
--- Quote ---DUDE, hold up, cause I have a woj from FB about not knowing the consequences of your choices is a fact of life. Note that the fae enchant food all the time too...
--- End quote ---
But wizards are not the Fae, are they? And DUDE, this smacks of blaming the victim.. I don't think this is what Jim meant or would apply to someone unknowingly being drugged and raped..
--- Quote --- Jim Butcher Yeah, but all your choices count, man. Not just the ones where someone says, "Are you absolutely sure about your answer."
Making a choice is stating who you are. Unequivocally. You can talk as much as you want about whatever goodness you want--your actions are what matter. Those choices, in some cases to /take lives/, weren't subconscious.
Molly said, "I'm in line with Winter." A BUNCH of times. And making statements like that add up--not because you're initialing a point on a contract for a lawyer, but because you are /changing yourself/ by making choices like that.
Creating life, ending life. Those are the heaviest hitting choices, the ones that truly matter, the ones that are irrevocable.
Choosing not to be self-aware enough to own what you're doing is a choice as well. One Molly didn't make. She knew about bargains. She knew the score. She didn't know how deep was the water she was getting into, but she ran and jumped off the cliff.
--- End quote ---
While true, Molly made choices, she had some idea of what they were, but she chose not to think that there would be consequences down the road for accepting Lea's "training.." Not the same at all as accepting a drink because you are thirsty or to be sociable without the anticipation that it might be drugged and you could end up having sex against your will.. Especially if you have no clue that the person you are with is capable of drugging that drink.. It isn't the same as drinking to the point of drunkenness, that is a choice.. But even the consequences of that are not totally the victim's fault in the eyes of the law..
But let's go back to Molly's original choice, to go into the minds of her friends to "help" them stop their addiction... Her friends did chose to take drugs to the point of doing physical harm to themselves.. However that did not acquit Molly from her choice to break the Law by entering their minds without their permission to alter them. Her friend have to be responsible for their original choices, but so does Molly..
Yes, while it is a choice to accept a drink or to drink from a glass or cup handed to you, your responsibility... That doesn't get the one who drugged the drink in the first place to have sex against the other person's will off the hook in terms of responsibility.
groinkick:
--- Quote from: Mira on August 08, 2018, 04:01:10 AM ---That doesn't get the one who drugged the drink in the first place to have sex against the other person's will off the hook in terms of responsibility.
--- End quote ---
Since when does responsibility matter to the laws? Harry could go on a raping spree and the White Council wouldn't care unless he violated the laws which the potions don't.
The laws aren't about morality.
Wizard Sibelis:
--- Quote ---But wizards are not the Fae, are they? And DUDE, this smacks of blaming the victim.. I don't think this is what Jim meant or would apply to someone unknowingly being drugged and raped..
--- End quote ---
actually he applied it to life and yea, I wanted to argue about it's validity in the DF with him for an entirely different reason, but I don't think our opinions of what's what matters to what IS what here...
--- Quote ---Jim Butcher Yeah, life is basically like that as well.
Jim Butcher You learn /after/ you do something massively stupid
--- End quote ---
Being ignorant of the existence of date rape seems to be a willful choice in ignorance. SO DUDE! I don't need that kinda opinionated vitriol flung my way thanks... on a topic that's not supposed to relate to real world morality, that's directly the point of contention that Margret had with them fyi.
*you'll find it quite unprovable that wizards are not related to or capable of becoming the fae. Indeed Molly's latent heritage and magical ability coincide with the possibility.
Mira:
--- Quote ---Being ignorant of the existence of date rape seems to be a willful choice in ignorance. SO DUDE! I don't need that kinda opinionated vitriol flung my way thanks... on a topic that's not supposed to relate to real world morality, that's directly the point of contention that Margret had with them fyi.
--- End quote ---
Thou flungist DUDE thine way first, so it was merely flung back at thou.....
Who says it has to be date rape? Fantasy is merely a reflection of real world morality, why then have the Seven Laws in the first place? Mainly to keep those with magical powers from taking unfair advantage of vanilla humanity... What was the Korean kid and Molly guilty of? Messing over another wizard? No, screwing with the minds of vulnerable vanilla humans... Use of magic to kill is seen as a perversion of magic, seems to be a rather moral view of it to me... Someone is just as dead if the means is with a gun or a fire spell..
--- Quote ---*you'll find it quite unprovable that wizards are not related to or capable of becoming the fae. Indeed Molly's latent heritage and magical ability coincide with the possibility.
--- End quote ---
That wasn't the point, the point being the fae are not subject to wizard law... Molly may be the exception because she is a wizard and now is Winter Lady... However I doubt that anyone on the Council will test that out least they piss off the whole of the fae world by severing her lovely head from her body for breaking the 3rd Law..
--- Quote ---Since when does responsibility matter to the laws? Harry could go on a raping spree and the White Council wouldn't care unless he violated the laws which the potions don't.
The laws aren't about morality.
--- End quote ---
I'd argue that they would if he used magic in any way to do his raping.. Guns don't kill people, people using guns do argument applies here I believe... Making a love potion isn't a violation of the
Law, but perhaps using one to alter another's mind without permission may be...
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