The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
WAG.... Murphy has moved on
Mira:
--- Quote ---Silly indeed.
On the one hand we have Nicodemous's take on things, and on the other hand we have Harry's view on the matter. It is clear that Harry believes that his life, Butter's life and Murphy's life are in real danger during the incident.
Believing in Nicodemous is not only silly. It also makes Harry looks very stupid, and since Murphy learns most of her stuff about the supernatural world from Harry, I can't really blame Murphy for the mistake even in the impossible event that Nicodemous speaks the truth. If even Harry misread the situation so badly, Murphy making the mistake is only to be expected and since Harry is the one who invited her to be his partner in this game to begin with, Harry again being portrayed as a true idiot.
The idea that Harry's life is not really in danger, makes "team good" look so incompetent the entire Dresden files series become so much of a joke. that is how much damage the idea cause to the overall value of the story.
The idea is not worth the damage.
--- End quote ---
All of this ignores the fact that even before Murphy left her house she lectured Harry as to why she shouldn't use a Holy Sword... Yes, it worked for C.I. but she didn't like being a sock puppet for an archangel, so she didn't want to be a Knight on a regular basis... Most importantly she didn't believe in the rules that are set down for the Knights, i.e. she doesn't believe in the redemption clause of the rules. That is, if the Denarian surrendered and willingly gave up the coin he or she would be let go to seek their own redemption. She didn't believe that any of them deserved such a chance, they only deserved execution, thud her carrying a Sword thus put it at risk for being broken... Then she ignored her own advice, Nic had nothing to do with that... Yes, he played her beautifully and played off her emotions to achieve his goal of getting the Sword broken... It wouldn't have happened if she had left the Sword at home and I don't know, just shot him in the head to save Harry...
Avernite:
--- Quote from: Mira on June 19, 2018, 03:45:29 PM ---All of this ignores the fact that even before Murphy left her house she lectured Harry as to why she shouldn't use a Holy Sword... Yes, it worked for C.I. but she didn't like being a sock puppet for an archangel, so she didn't want to be a Knight on a regular basis... Most importantly she didn't believe in the rules that are set down for the Knights, i.e. she doesn't believe in the redemption clause of the rules. That is, if the Denarian surrendered and willingly gave up the coin he or she would be let go to seek their own redemption. She didn't believe that any of them deserved such a chance, they only deserved execution, thud her carrying a Sword thus put it at risk for being broken... Then she ignored her own advice, Nic had nothing to do with that... Yes, he played her beautifully and played off her emotions to achieve his goal of getting the Sword broken... It wouldn't have happened if she had left the Sword at home and I don't know, just shot him in the head to save Harry...
--- End quote ---
The whole case is silly; in no sensible way was Nicodemus actually surrendering to Murphy. He was very clearly playing her, and I think it was a bit of an author's cop-out to break the sword for it.
And as Uriel says in Changes: whatever you do, do it for love. Murphy did exactly what Uriel recommended, and it worked out (as Uriel suggested), if different than anyone imagined.
Mr. Death:
Well yeah. The idea was never to convince Murphy, or anyone else for that matter, that he was really repentant. If anything, the goal was to do the opposite. He made himself a "defenseless," and "surrendered" captive so that she couldn't kill him with the Sword, then made it blatantly obvious that it was all bullshit and used Dresden to make her really really want to kill him with the Sword, then pushed it till something gave.
Mira:
--- Quote from: Avernite on June 19, 2018, 05:07:16 PM ---The whole case is silly; in no sensible way was Nicodemus actually surrendering to Murphy. He was very clearly playing her, and I think it was a bit of an author's cop-out to break the sword for it.
And as Uriel says in Changes: whatever you do, do it for love. Murphy did exactly what Uriel recommended, and it worked out (as Uriel suggested), if different than anyone imagined.
--- End quote ---
I think the point is, yes, Nic was playing her, he was well aware that she had the Sword with her. She didn't know that
except under special conditions, Andriel sees and hears everything, so hiding the Sword only kept it from Harry, not Nic. She couldn't see that she was being played, Harry tried to warn her even as his skull seemingly was about to be crushed. So Nic knowing she had the Sword with her and how she felt about it, he set her up. He did gamble a bit, his gamble was that she'd hold to her belief that he deserved death instead of a chance at redemption... So she raised the Sword, she judged, "damn you," she struck, breaking the rules and the Sword... Now, if she had called his bluff and accepted his surrender, the coin, and the noose, he would have been screwed like Cassius was... Or if he took them back and continued to fight, then she would have been free to lop off his head..
And yes, Murphy was forgiven for her screw up because she did for love... However that didn't make her actions right... I believe what Uriel told Harry in Changes was; page 229 hard back
--- Quote ---Uriel said. "Whatever you do, do it for love. If you keep to that, your path will never wander so far from the light that you can never return."
--- End quote ---
Uriel was telling Harry that becoming Winter Knight if he did for the love of his daughter, his actions would not take him so far off the path, that he could never be redeemed. Yes, love motivated Murphy, yes, it worked out with the Sword... However it remains to be seen whether or not she can make it back to the path to the light. Same goes for Harry as far as that goes. Time will tell.
--- Quote ---Well yeah. The idea was never to convince Murphy, or anyone else for that matter, that he was really repentant. If anything, the goal was to do the opposite. He made himself a "defenseless," and "surrendered" captive so that she couldn't kill him with the Sword, then made it blatantly obvious that it was all bullshit and used Dresden to make her really really want to kill him with the Sword, then pushed it till something gave.
--- End quote ---
Whether or not he was repentant when he surrendered makes no difference.. He surrendered, thus has to be give a second chance at life.. Whether he works at his own redemption or not with what remains of his life is up to him... This is what Michael explained to Harry when he was outraged that he and Sanya would allow Cassius to go free after he surrendered. It isn't for the Knight to judge, yes, if the bastard doesn't surrender, lop off his head, but if he does, he has to be given that chance at life to make amends if he so chooses..
Arjan:
--- Quote from: Mira on June 19, 2018, 03:45:29 PM ---All of this ignores the fact that even before Murphy left her house she lectured Harry as to why she shouldn't use a Holy Sword... Yes, it worked for C.I. but she didn't like being a sock puppet for an archangel, so she didn't want to be a Knight on a regular basis... Most importantly she didn't believe in the rules that are set down for the Knights, i.e. she doesn't believe in the redemption clause of the rules. That is, if the Denarian surrendered and willingly gave up the coin he or she would be let go to seek their own redemption. She didn't believe that any of them deserved such a chance, they only deserved execution, thud her carrying a Sword thus put it at risk for being broken... Then she ignored her own advice,
--- End quote ---
Because she had no other realistic option to save those she loved. She had to try. And if I had to choose between saving my wife or saving that sword I would have broken that sword myself if need be, it is just a tool after all.
--- Quote ---Nic had nothing to do with that... Yes, he played her beautifully and played off her emotions to achieve his goal of getting the Sword broken... It wouldn't have happened if she had left the Sword at home and I don't know, just shot him in the head to save Harry...
--- End quote ---
Would not have worked. He must be protected against bullets. Murphy was in a difficult situation not because she distrusted Harry or was lecturing him or whatever but because Harry and Murphy were trying to save Waldo from the consequences of his own actions.
Again the opinions of Harry and Murphy, both highly respected by a former knight of the cross and two current ones, are worth less than the word of a known liar and oathbreaker. Her genuine love and concern are belittled. A tool is valued higher than human life. Basically Nicodemus has a herald on this forum.
It is all about love. Not just the love between Harry and Murphy but the love between all Harry's friends. Ghost story was a dark time but a lot of that love is back now and we should celebrate that, not bashing it.
Bashing love is the work of the fallen, it is the fallen in the coin speaking. Give up that coin. Really your soul is worth more than everything.
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