Author Topic: Cowl is Justin reboot  (Read 20088 times)

Offline Snark Knight

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Re: Cowl is Justin reboot
« Reply #45 on: May 01, 2018, 01:21:31 AM »
There was no guarantee for it.  He already had those wizards as allies.
Anyways, if we are thinking about someone being able to compromise Archangel's defenses, I think we should now extend that list to Nemesis.  Nemesis is possibly able to bypass Gatekeepers wards at Outergates, I'm sure it can handle Simon's wards too.  Peabody also got Mistfiend into Edinburgh, so that is another example of someone bypassing the security wards.  Also, Peabody could have uses his influences on some of the younger wardens stationed at Archangel to open up a whole in its defense allowing Reds entry.  These don't require Justin nor Simon complicity.

Those are all also valid possibilities, some of them quite credible.

But the brute squad were only Simon's allies so long as they thought he was a proper Senior Council leader. If he wanted to chase the Darkhallow, I can't see any but a handful of personal loyalists actually backing him in it. And if he started being absent at the wrong times because of doing Cowl things, one of them might have figured it out.

Offline forumghost

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Re: Cowl is Justin reboot
« Reply #46 on: May 01, 2018, 02:33:13 AM »
I think that is making Justin into too big of a player.  It is giving him too much credit.

While I agree with you, keep in mind that Justin was part of Maggie/Raith's Legion of Doom at one point.

Offline peregrine

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Re: Cowl is Justin reboot
« Reply #47 on: May 01, 2018, 02:57:51 AM »
Where are you getting that from?  He knew Maggie, sure, but Raith?

Offline groinkick

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Re: Cowl is Justin reboot
« Reply #48 on: May 01, 2018, 05:29:03 AM »
Where are you getting that from?  He knew Maggie, sure, but Raith?

Justin trained under an expert on the Red Court, was a warden, ran around with Maggie....  He had to know of Raith, and because Justin wasn't a good guy he probably would have reached out to people like Raith.  Justin summoned He Who Walks Behind to go after Harry, and Lord Raith summoned He Who Walks Behind in the tunnels....
Stole this from Reginald because it was so well put, and is true for me as well.

"I love this place. It was a beacon in the dark and I couldn't have made it through some of the most maddening years of my life without some great people here."  Thank you Griff and others who took up the torch.

Offline Kindler

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Re: Cowl is Justin reboot
« Reply #49 on: May 01, 2018, 01:33:07 PM »
Justin trained under an expert on the Red Court, was a warden, ran around with Maggie....  He had to know of Raith, and because Justin wasn't a good guy he probably would have reached out to people like Raith.  Justin summoned He Who Walks Behind to go after Harry, and Lord Raith summoned He Who Walks Behind in the tunnels....

I'm going to just write some things here, because I've got some thoughts and questions, so forgive me if this appears to ramble.

Are we sure it was Justin who sent him? I don't have the text at hand right now, and I can't recall if it's explicitly stated that Justin summoned HWWB at all. I tend to think it was him, because testing Harry's Starborn-ness would fall in line with what Justin's intentions appear to have been. But why would Justin go through all the trouble to find a Starborn only to test his ability to fight Outsiders with one of the KNIGHTS? He Who Walks Behind and He Who Walks Before are stupidly strong; wouldn't it make more sense to test Harry against a (relative) baby Outsider, just to see if his magic would stick to it? And if there was a deal made with HWWB, what the hell did it get in exchange for not immediately dicing Harry into bite-sized bits?

Personally, I'd think that there are a few options: either A) HWWB just really liked to play with his food, and he really was trying to kill Harry, either at someone's behest, or the opportunity to kill Harry, a Starborn, was payment as part of a deal, B) there's a lot more to this Starborn thing than we know. I don't think it would be in the Outsiders' best interest to keep alive someone whose magic actually worked on them. To me, that means that Starborn have something to offer the Outsiders, something significant, something that makes it worth the risk of keeping a strong enemy alive. Maybe Starborn are the only ones who can open the Gates from this side?


Offline raidem

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Re: Cowl is Justin reboot
« Reply #50 on: May 01, 2018, 02:11:24 PM »
I think the Outsiders probably wanted to turn Starborn against the Queens.  Or even use them to make free willed choices that would end up bringing in more Outsiders.  Like you said, maybe having a Starborn on their side attacking the OuterGates from the inside would help the Outsiders chances at bringing them down.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2018, 02:13:14 PM by raidem »
"That's it???  It's really that simple? 
LIES!  Damn lies!  It's a cover up!
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Offline peregrine

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Re: Cowl is Justin reboot
« Reply #51 on: May 01, 2018, 02:58:33 PM »
Justin trained under an expert on the Red Court, was a warden, ran around with Maggie....  He had to know of Raith, and because Justin wasn't a good guy he probably would have reached out to people like Raith.  Justin summoned He Who Walks Behind to go after Harry, and Lord Raith summoned He Who Walks Behind in the tunnels....
Knowing of someone does not mean they know someone, much less are part of what must be a fairly exclusive cabal.

Offline groinkick

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Re: Cowl is Justin reboot
« Reply #52 on: May 01, 2018, 05:37:57 PM »
Knowing of someone does not mean they know someone, much less are part of what must be a fairly exclusive cabal.

It could be assumed that Raith, and Maggie's idea of creating a Starborn was somewhat of a secret, yet Justin ended up with the Starborn.. 
Stole this from Reginald because it was so well put, and is true for me as well.

"I love this place. It was a beacon in the dark and I couldn't have made it through some of the most maddening years of my life without some great people here."  Thank you Griff and others who took up the torch.

Offline KurtinStGeorge

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Re: Cowl is Justin reboot
« Reply #53 on: May 01, 2018, 07:12:31 PM »
What we know and don't know Justin DuMorne; and what we may assume about him. 

Maggie tried to get Ebenezer to join in an unknown (to us) scheme with Duchess Arianna and Lord Raith.  Justin DuMorne was also one of her associates.  However, we don't know if Justin was associated with Margaret LeFey at the same time she was working with Lord Raith.  She could have made different allies at different times and in different circumstances.

Justin removed Harry from an orphanage shortly after Harry's magic ability started to emerge.  We can assume something similar for Elaine, but we don't know for certain.  There might be important differences in how and why Justin selected each of them, but we have nothing to confirm this possibility.

We can assume Justin wasn't on the run from the White Council when he adopted Harry and Elaine.  If he had been on the run it seems unlikely he could live in one place very long with any degree of safety and raise two teenagers at the same time.  From this we can also assume that whatever his true relationship was to Harry's mother, from the White Council's perspective it couldn't have looked nefarious, at least as long as they didn't look too closely.  Many wizards must have known Margaret before she had broken any of the Laws of Magic, and Justin might have claimed that he hadn't been in contact with her after she went rogue, even if that wasn't true. 

HWWB knew Justin DuMorne or knew enough about him to drop his name when the Walker was talking to Harry the first time they met.  Harry assumed Justin called HWWB behind to go after Harry after he ran away.  That was a logical assumption for Harry to make, but we don't know with certainty if this was the case.

We don't know how the events played out that lead to Justin's death.  (Assuming he did in fact die.)  The early books are a little vague on the details.  We know Elaine hit Harry with a binding that he was eventually able to break.  There was also an attempt to force Harry to drink human blood in some type of ritual which we can assume would have enthralled Harry to Justin's will.  Elaine was chanting and her body was painted with swirling patterns which seems to confirm that a ritual was being used.  At some point Harry is free and all we really know is Harry vividly remembers seeing Justin burn to death and that he continued to watch Justin's corpse blacken and shrivel in the flames. 

That's about it other than other people and not people's opinions of Justin.  Ebenezer called Justin a "son of a bitch."  Bob told Harry that Justin got what he deserved.  Lea told Harry that he wanted to give Justin the benefit of the doubt, but he was wrong to do so; in other words Justin got what he deserved.  From this, all we can really be certain of is that Lea didn't tell Harry a direct lie about Justin.  There may have been, and probably was much she didn't tell Harry about Justin, because Harry was only drawing upon his own memories of Justin, Lea wasn't sharing any of hers.  I suppose we can also trust Bob's opinion because he didn't have any reason to lie to Harry, but Bob doesn't have a strong grasp of morality so his opinion on when it's right to kill someone can be somewhat shaky.  We really don't know when and how Ebenezer formed his opinion of Justin. 

There is one last tiny bit of information which possibly links Justin to Lea.  From time to time young Harry was visited by a beautiful women with red hair when he was at the orphanage, Lea.  (I don't remember which book Harry had this memory in.)  It's easy to assume Lea was simply fulfilling her bargain with Margaret to look after Harry, but she was probably also there to check if Harry's magic had stated to manifest.  She could have detected magic far more easily than any mortal could have.  This also could have also been part of her bargain with Margaret, Lea might have agreed to find someone to teach Harry how to use magic, but Lea might also have made a separate agreement with Justin.  There is a huge gap in our knowledge here.

I'm hoping Peace Talks will give us more information about Margaret LeFay and by extension Justin DuMorne.     
« Last Edit: May 02, 2018, 03:53:29 AM by KurtinStGeorge »
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Offline raidem

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Re: Cowl is Justin reboot
« Reply #54 on: May 01, 2018, 09:40:02 PM »
Well written.

Lea was Harry's high school councillor I think.  I recall that from somewhere.
"That's it???  It's really that simple? 
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Offline Talby16

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Re: Cowl is Justin reboot
« Reply #55 on: May 01, 2018, 09:44:55 PM »
What we know and don't know Justin DuMorne; and what we may assume about him. 

Maggie tried to get Ebenezer to join in an unknown (to us) scheme with Duchess Arianna and Lord Raith.  Justin DuMorne was also one of her associates.  However, we don't know if Justin was associated with Margaret LeFey at the same time she was working with Lord Raith.  She could have made different allies at different times and in different circumstances.

Justin removed Harry from an orphanage shortly after Harry's magic ability started to emerge.  We can assume something similar for Elaine, but we don't know for certain.  There might be important differences in how and why Justin selected each of them, but we have nothing to confirm this possibility.

We can assume Justin wasn't on the run from the White Council when he adopted Harry and Elaine.  If he had been on the run it seems unlikely he could live in one place very long with any degree of safety and raise two teenagers at the same time.  From this we can also assume that whatever his true relationship was to Harry's mother, from the White Council's perspective it couldn't have looked nefarious, at least as long as they didn't look too closely.  Many wizards must have known Margaret before she had broken any of the Laws of Magic, and Justin might have claimed that he hadn't been in contact with her after she went rogue, even if that wasn't true. 

HWWB knew Justin DuMorne or knew enough about him to drop his name when the Walker was talking to Harry the first time they met.  Harry assumed Justin called HWWB behind to go after Harry after he ran away.  That was a logical assumption for Harry to make, but we don't know with certainty if this was the case.

We don't know how the events played out that lead to Justin's death.  (Assuming he did in fact die.)  The early books are a little vague on the details.  We know Elaine hit Harry with a binding that he was eventually able to break.  There was also an attempt to force Harry to drink human blood in some type of ritual which we can assume would have enthralled Harry to Justin's will.  Elaine was chanting and her body was painted with swirling patterns which seems to confirm that a ritual was being used.  At some point Harry is free and all we really know is Harry vividly remembers seeing Justin burn to death and that he continued to watch Justin's corpse blacken and shrivel in the flames. 

That's about it other than other people and not people's opinions of Justin.  Ebenezer called Justin a "son of a bitch."  Bob told Harry that Justin got what he deserved.  Lea told Harry that he wanted to give Justin the benefit of the doubt, but he was wrong to do so; in other words Justin got what he deserved.  From this, all we can really be certain of is that Lea didn't tell Harry a direct lie about Justin.  There may have been, and probably was much she didn't tell Harry about Justin, because Harry was only drawing upon his own memories of Justin, Lea wasn't sharing any of hers.  I suppose we can also trust Bob's opinion because he didn't have any reason to lie to Harry, but Bob doesn't have a strong grasp of morality so his opinion on when it's right to kill someone can be somewhat shaky.  We really don't know when and how Ebenezer formed his opinion of Justin. 

There is one last tiny bit of information which possibly links Justin to Lea.  From time to time young Harry was visited by a beautiful women with red hair when he was at the orphanage, Lea.  (I don't remember which book Harry had this memory in.)  It's easy to assume Lea was simply fulfilling her bargain with Margaret to look after Harry, but she was probably also there to check if Harry's magic had stated to manifest.  She could have detected magic far more easily that any mortal could have.  This also could have also been part of her bargain with Margaret, Lea might have agreed to find someone to teach Harry how to use magic, but Lea might also have made a separate agreement with Justin.  There is a huge gap in our knowledge here.

I'm hoping Peace Talks will give us more information about Margaret LeFay and by extension Justin DuMorne.   

First, bravo for the summary. Very succinct and well put. I would also like to see some clarification about the relationship between Justin and Margaret. I think it can be assumed that Justin had prior knowledge about Harry (given the unlikeliness of randomly running into a star born at an orphanage) yet only took him in once his powers manifested so that he could direct Harry's path. If Justin knew of Harry's starborn status he conceivably could have influenced Raith to go after Margaret so that he could swoop in and gain control of a starborn.

Offline Fcrate

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Re: Cowl is Justin reboot
« Reply #56 on: May 02, 2018, 01:23:56 AM »
About Starbon being the only ones able to open the Outer Gates.
There is a law of magic: Thou Shalt Not Open the Outer Gates.
It implies that anyone can.
@Kurtin: Very well put.
هل أخذت الغاب مثلي منزلاً دون القصور
فتتبعت السواقي وتسلقت الصخور
هل تحممت بعطره وتنشفت بنور
وشربت الفجر خمراً من كؤوس من أثير

Offline peregrine

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Re: Cowl is Justin reboot
« Reply #57 on: May 02, 2018, 03:29:04 AM »
It could be assumed that Raith, and Maggie's idea of creating a Starborn was somewhat of a secret, yet Justin ended up with the Starborn..
So Elaine was part of Maggie's plan too?

And I still don't accept as gospel that Maggie was trying to create a Starborn.

Offline groinkick

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Re: Cowl is Justin reboot
« Reply #58 on: May 02, 2018, 03:40:19 AM »
So Elaine was part of Maggie's plan too?

Dunno.  It hasn't been confirmed she is one, but it's a good possibility.  What are the odds of Justin just randomly finding Starborn's without being involved?  I suppose an Outsider, or god or something could have informed him.

Quote
And I still don't accept as gospel that Maggie was trying to create a Starborn.

Well I don't think she was trying to with Harry father, but before that with Raith I believe that was confirmed?
Stole this from Reginald because it was so well put, and is true for me as well.

"I love this place. It was a beacon in the dark and I couldn't have made it through some of the most maddening years of my life without some great people here."  Thank you Griff and others who took up the torch.

Offline peregrine

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Re: Cowl is Justin reboot
« Reply #59 on: May 02, 2018, 04:25:57 AM »
Dunno.  It hasn't been confirmed she is one, but it's a good possibility.  What are the odds of Justin just randomly finding Starborn's without being involved?  I suppose an Outsider, or god or something could have informed him.

Well I don't think she was trying to with Harry father, but before that with Raith I believe that was confirmed?
Without knowing exactly what makes a Starborn, it's possible that he was able to find them quite easily.  Take the children of a wizard parent, born at X time, in Y area, perhaps, and you're good to go.  Otherwise you have to argue that Justin is then involved with Elaine's birth as well.  Which we've seen no evidence in support of.

And if she wasn't trying with Harry's father, why did she need to be trying with Raith, given that it can then apparently happen without trying.  Plus, I've not seen anything from Jim confirming it.  Closest thing involved Thomas's birthday (universal irony) and certain readings of Lash's statement that Maggie found the strength to escape Raith "for a reason."