What do you wish would be done MORE in urban fantasy?

[Quantus]

Cooper, for inspiration you might want to read "Empire of the East" -(3 books in one) by Saberhagen.  I don't want to ruin it for you but if you want a quick synopsis:

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...Earth has experienced a dramatic Change not too distant from our own time. During a potentially apocalyptic nuclear war, an intelligent computer named Ardneh—Automatic Restoration Director/National Executive Headquarters—triggered a vast paradigm shift in the very fabric of reality. Physics died—saved for scattered technological remnants—and magic came to rule the planet. 50,000 years passed, during which a lamed Ardneh survived, guiding mankind, until a final showdown with the computer's evil nemesis, Orcus, during which both were destroyed and the role of magic considerably reduced.

Hold the frickin' phone.... I loved Saberhagen's other books in that continuity, but i didn't know there were  more of them.  I read his 11 Sword books

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(set years and years after Ardneh confrontation with Orcus, when a groupd of greco-roman "gods" make a set of twelve magic swords and scatter them amongst humanity for the fun of it...until they realize that the swords caneven kill them)

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For those of you who keep saying you want to see more mundane people rise to hero-hood, I recommend most of Neil Gaiman's novels (American Gods, Neverwhere and others).  He does just that, where a seemingly ordinary person gets swept up in supernatural goings-on, and usually is just looking for a way out the whole time.  They are fun because the characters usually end up hitting this state of pseudo-insanity where they are no longer surprised by anything they see and begin to simply take everything in stride.

[Kristine]

They both have a unique view on how magic works and give us charcters that are less predicatable.

Speaking of how magic works, one of the best things I liked about the Tim Powers historical fantasy pirate book 'On Stranger Tides' was the fact that magic had a smell.  Every time some one would do magic there would be a pungent smell of almonds in the air (something most of the non-magic characters didn't notice, but was a warning for the reader).  I thought that was an original idea. 

Quantas347, Empire of the East, in my opinion was a little more toward the urban fantasy setting because the characters would, once in a while, use some kind of modern convenience and at one point they find, and use, a tank.  Where the Swords books seem to be in almost a wholly fantasy medieval setting except for the Greco-roman gods

[Quantus]

And the occasional flashlight...which interestingly enough seemed to be the most common surviving technology.  Hmmm...maybe I should invest some in Maglight...

[MatthewD44]

Thank you Kristine I have been racking my brain for months trying to remember the name of that book "On Stranger Tides" I loved that book and wanted to reread it...

[Shecky]

Hold the frickin' phone.... I loved Saberhagen's other books in that continuity, but i didn't know there were  more of them.  I read his 11 Sword books

(click to show/hide)

(set years and years after Ardneh confrontation with Orcus, when a groupd of greco-roman "gods" make a set of twelve magic swords and scatter them amongst humanity for the fun of it...until they realize that the swords caneven kill them)

.


For those of you who keep saying you want to see more mundane people rise to hero-hood, I recommend most of Neil Gaiman's novels (American Gods, Neverwhere and others).  He does just that, where a seemingly ordinary person gets swept up in supernatural goings-on, and usually is just looking for a way out the whole time.  They are fun because the characters usually end up hitting this state of pseudo-insanity where they are no longer surprised by anything they see and begin to simply take everything in stride.

Yeah, and don't forget that in Good Omens, the one person who really does come out a hero is the most humdrum of the bunch. Sure, he's got this ability, but in every other situation, it's a BAD one to have. And he ain't purty.

[The Corvidian]

Hey, Jami, check out C.E. Murphy's Heart of Stone for a regular human heroine.

[Suilan]

Another thing I would like more in Urban fantasy: language and description that are above high-school level. Right now, I am despairing of the genre again. I've tried three different authors and haven't gotten past page 20 or so because on 20 pages I haven't found a single thought or idea or piece of description that had me thinking: wow, nicely put. I mean, it is all so trite and mediocre, as if the author had jotted down the first image or thought that came to him. Flat, unimaginative language puts me off before I can even get to whatever exciting development the plot might take on page 50 or so.

[Sorryman105]

Hey, Jami, check out C.E. Murphy's Heart of Stone for a regular human heroine.

Another good series, I'm just joping she doesn't suddenly discover unkown powers and become queen bitch of New York.

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

Another thing I would like more in Urban fantasy: language and description that are above high-school level. Right now, I am despairing of the genre again. I've tried three different authors and haven't gotten past page 20 or so because on 20 pages I haven't found a single thought or idea or piece of description that had me thinking: wow, nicely put. I mean, it is all so trite and mediocre, as if the author had jotted down the first image or thought that came to him. Flat, unimaginative language puts me off before I can even get to whatever exciting development the plot might take on page 50 or so.

At risk of getting repetitive, Mike Carye's Felix Castor books struck me as good on this; Castor has a knack for the telling Raymond Chandler-esque metaphor or description; for example mentioning one of his professional rivals as often initially striking people as motherly, but adding 'If I were describing her myself, "mother" might well be the first two syllables I'd use."

[Magus Dresdenarus]

One thing I really want to see less of: Attempting to make magic a form of "science."  (Sorry, Mr. Butcher. That's the one thing I dislike about the Dresden-verse.)  Magic(k) isn't science. Magic is religion.

When magic is assumed as science, it also assumes that, like science, magic is dispassionate towards mythology, culture, and tradition.  In short, the urban fantasy axiom is "Magic is the same everywhere. Culture and tradition are just 'flavorings.' "  In the real world, that just isn't true.  Not all magic systems fit into the Egyptian/Golden Dawn/Wicca template.  (Disagree ?  Try plugging in the ancient Chinese, Babylonian, or tribal New Guinean magic systems into that template.)

It seems to me that all modern urban fantasy takes a magic-is-science approach because it is dispassionate and, as a result, won't offend anyone.  In short, magic has become politically correct.

If your character is a Catholic, give him a Catholic viewpoint and make his magic match it according to Catholic tradition; If your character is Wiccan, give him (or her) a Wiccan viewpoint and make his magic match it.

Sure, it takes a LOT of extra research.  But it makes magic less homogenous; As a result, you gain real-world verisimilitude and lose that "I cast a ninth-level fireball. Roll your saving throw" feel.

[The Corvidian]

One thing I really want to see less of: Attempting to make magic a form of "science."  (Sorry, Mr. Butcher. That's the one thing I dislike about the Dresden-verse.)  Magic(k) isn't science. Magic is religion.

When magic is assumed as science, it also assumes that, like science, magic is dispassionate towards mythology, culture, and tradition.  In short, the urban fantasy axiom is "Magic is the same everywhere. Culture and tradition are just 'flavorings.' "  In the real world, that just isn't true.  Not all magic systems fit into the Egyptian/Golden Dawn/Wicca template.  (Disagree ?  Try plugging in the ancient Chinese, Babylonian, or tribal New Guinean magic systems into that template.)

It seems to me that all modern urban fantasy takes a magic-is-science approach because it is dispassionate and, as a result, won't offend anyone.  In short, magic has become politically correct.

If your character is a Catholic, give him a Catholic viewpoint and make his magic match it according to Catholic tradition; If your character is Wiccan, give him (or her) a Wiccan viewpoint and make his magic match it.

Sure, it takes a LOT of extra research.  But it makes magic less homogenous; As a result, you gain real-world verisimilitude and lose that "I cast a ninth-level fireball. Roll your saving throw" feel.

According to some sources, magic grew out of religion, and that at one time, the wizard and the scientist were one and the same.

[Magus Dresdenarus]

According to some sources, magic grew out of religion, and that at one time, the wizard and the scientist were one and the same.

And these sources are ?

[Quantus]

One thing I really want to see less of: Attempting to make magic a form of "science."  (Sorry, Mr. Butcher. That's the one thing I dislike about the Dresden-verse.)  Magic(k) isn't science. Magic is religion.

When magic is assumed as science, it also assumes that, like science, magic is dispassionate towards mythology, culture, and tradition.  In short, the urban fantasy axiom is "Magic is the same everywhere. Culture and tradition are just 'flavorings.' "  In the real world, that just isn't true.  Not all magic systems fit into the Egyptian/Golden Dawn/Wicca template.  (Disagree ?  Try plugging in the ancient Chinese, Babylonian, or tribal New Guinean magic systems into that template.)

It seems to me that all modern urban fantasy takes a magic-is-science approach because it is dispassionate and, as a result, won't offend anyone.  In short, magic has become politically correct.

If your character is a Catholic, give him a Catholic viewpoint and make his magic match it according to Catholic tradition; If your character is Wiccan, give him (or her) a Wiccan viewpoint and make his magic match it.

Sure, it takes a LOT of extra research.  But it makes magic less homogenous; As a result, you gain real-world verisimilitude and lose that "I cast a ninth-level fireball. Roll your saving throw" feel.

While I can agree with you to some point, in that overly "crunchy" magic systems in fantasy novels can leave the sound of dice in your head.  But I dont really think thats the case in Dresden.  While sure, Harry personally looks at it as a Science sort of thing, its constantly pointed out that that is not how everyone does it, and in fact it almost a minority viewpoint;  magic is too subjective to be considered a science.  Michael uses magic, its just powered by God, wiccan magic practitioners can create holy water in their shrines, Etc.  The only homogeneous things I can think of are the basic ways a human handles the energy (words/focii/gestures as mental insulation which is a common theme worldwide, the death curse, the murphyonic field, slowed aging) and some of the distinctions made about mortal magic (like how its the only thing that can canll outsiders, etc).  Most of these seem to me to give a basic framework that allows all types of magic to exist.  The problem about saying that the magic is a purely catholic thing or purely a wiccan thing is that people then ask why that one is real and all the other types of magic out there are fake?  People (or at least me) like some sort of unified view of the world. 

Aslo throughout Harry's association with Michael, it seems to me that his view of things is slowing swinging towards the faith side.  Its one of my favorite continuing plots, the Harry's reconciliation with God.   

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

It seems to me that all modern urban fantasy takes a magic-is-science approach because it is dispassionate and, as a result, won't offend anyone.  In short, magic has become politically correct.

Personally, when I write magic as science it's because it allows the reader to have a reasonable notion of what is and isn't possible, so you can play fair within the ground rules you set up.  Magic that is not rational means that whatever difficulties and dilemmas your characters get into, there's always the lurking possibility that one of them can pull a magical solution out of their backside and save the day, even if you don't actually do that; and to me that undermines the possibility of generating many kinds of narrative tension.

Fictional takes on magic where you can hear the dice rolling for the damage the fireball does suck, I have no argument there.  The other thing that strikes me as a possibility for magic-as-science, though, and that I've not often seen much done with, is magic-as-science that feels like actual real scientific research does, and has the excitement and adventure of being on an expanding frontier of human knowledge.  As a working sicentist in my day job, this is one of the things I aspire to do in my fiction.

[Quantus]

Personally, when I write magic as science it's because it allows the reader to have a reasonable notion of what is and isn't possible, so you can play fair within the ground rules you set up.  Magic that is not rational means that whatever difficulties and dilemmas your characters get into, there's always the lurking possibility that one of them can pull a magical solution out of their backside and save the day, even if you don't actually do that; and to me that undermines the possibility of generating many kinds of narrative tension.

Exactly.  I want enough eexplanation of the workings of the magic of the world that when the hero does something suitably impressive, I feel that too.  I like magic having some amount of defined limitations, so that when they are pushed, surpassed, or even just circumvented with nice innovation, we feel as impressed as we should.  An impressive amount of fireball in Dresden is a far cry from an impressive amount in Alera, for example.

Fictional takes on magic where you can hear the dice rolling for the damage the fireball does suck, I have no argument there.  The other thing that strikes me as a possibility for magic-as-science, though, and that I've not often seen much done with, is magic-as-science that feels like actual real scientific research does, and has the excitement and adventure of being on an expanding frontier of human knowledge.  As a working sicentist in my day job, this is one of the things I aspire to do in my fiction.

One of the reasons I enjoyed Full-Metal Alchemist so much.  I thought they took teh whole "magic still has to deal with physics" idea to a new level, and did it well.