The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Cold Days: Attack on Demonreach
groinkick:
--- Quote from: raidem on January 23, 2018, 07:56:52 PM ---I've thought of it too. Still, if that is the case then it would be an operative conjunction similar to Halloween. So the argument between EG and myself would still largely be in effect. There were many issues in play with him. Some being my statement that many of the beings imprisoned within Demonreach had mantles/powers that could pass/consumed by others upon them dying. He preferred a case in which they walked free not killed which is why he was insistent upon a nonHalloween Nov 1st event. If Banefire does the same thing as Halloween, it renders his intended argument mute.
--- End quote ---
This I don't know about... Like the Skin walkers, I don't think those are Mantles, they just are.. Kind of like Vampires but much more powerful. Most Mantles seem to be of importance, if they were locked up (Mab for example being threatened by Harry) may very well create a huge amount of damage to the structure of things. I'm leaning towards the idea that Mantles may be locked into very specific groups.
Dragons are incredibly powerful, and important but when they die... That's it, gone, no Mantle.
If someone does have a Mantle, the Warden would probably kill them come Halloween to ensure that the Mantle of responsibility doesn't cause too much damage to reality, and ensure those responsibilities are fulfilled. Like Harry could have locked up Nemesis infected Maeve in September, and then kill her on Halloween so that the Lady's Mantle returns to Winter returning balance to Summer/Winter.
raidem:
Isn't there a WOJL on human ideas creating these entities/mantles. And that as long as these exist in the minds of humans, they don't cease to exist. So in this fashion, this 'mantle/mask' doesn't just disappear. I think it needs to be assigned to Oblivion before that happens.
--- Quote ---Dragons are incredibly powerful, and important but when they die... That's it, gone, no Mantle.
--- End quote ---
But can something come along and assume the mask/mantle that is left. When I say mask/mantle I'm talking about the idea that is anchored by Human idea and thought.
The Dragons exist so long as humans know about them. It actually starts to make sense now after reading the Amber series. If you kill the Dragon, a shadow of the Dragon continues to exist. Even if the world upon which the Dragon is killed is destroyed, Corwin could using a shadow of this world and all its creatures, features reanimate it into a nearly 'perfect' copy.
groinkick:
--- Quote from: raidem on January 23, 2018, 08:14:19 PM ---Isn't there a WOJL on human ideas creating these entities/mantles. And that as long as these exist in the minds of humans, they don't cease to exist. So in this fashion, this 'mantle/mask' doesn't just disappear. I think it needs to be assigned to Oblivion before that happens.
--- End quote ---
Well I'm saying that the Mantle being locked up on Demon Reach might still exist but it's trapped and unable to fulfill the responsibilities it has, causing damage. So I don't know if there would be many Mantles locked up on DR, only powerful Beings. Drakul for example I doubt is a Mantle. Locking him up would be ok. Mother Winter on the other hand would be devastating to reality if locked up there. So I just don't think Mantle wearers would be locked up there, at least not any that are of importance to reality.
--- Quote ---The Dragons exist so long as humans know about them.
--- End quote ---
No... Michael killed one. It's gone. Not returned. There is no Mantle for it. I am in the camp that there are those that have Mantles created by belief/ritual, and there are those that simply exist. Dragons I believe are celestial beings that did not require belief, they simply exist. Same for TWG, Outsiders, and others.
raidem:
I think it was Mab's absence on Earth and her job that would do hideous things to Earth, not necessarily what she could do down below. And, I think there might be things of Mab's weight class in the prison.
--- Quote ---No... Michael killed one. It's gone. Not returned. There is no Mantle for it.
--- End quote ---
I know what you are saying. I also know about Amber and that Jim drew much material from it. Jim also has parallel reality's within the Dresdenverse where there are likely those Dragon's alive and well. So, I don't think it's gone in teh absolute sense of the word. And, in the Amber sense, it could be recreated since a shadow of it would be out there somewhere.
It's like Sue. She died 60Million+ years ago. And yet, Harry was able to reach out into the 'shadows' and reach her spirit and strengthen the connection between her and her bones. Sue's spirit being out there is very like what occurs in Amber. The Dragon likely has this 'shadow' as well. And that isn't to mention the fact there are other parallel realities in which the Dragon may be alive.
One other thing on the mantle debate. The argument didn't just hinge on their being mantles within Demonreach. I argued that there would be power that could be consumed/gobbled up on Halloween with the destruction of the entities by the banefire. EG still didn't want the banefire to release any of the power by the entities within because it wasn't Halloween.
raidem:
--- Quote ---“Idiots,” he breathed. “Even if they could defeat the banefire . . .” “Wait,” I said. “Banefire?” “The fail-safe,” Vadderung said. “The fire the island showed you.” “Right. It’ll kill everything held there rather than let them escape, right?” “It is the only way,” Vadderung said. “If anyone managed to set free the things in the Well . . .” “Seems like it would be bad,” I said. “Not bad,” Vadderung said. “The end.”
--- End quote ---
--- Quote ---“So it’s going to happen sometime today or tonight.” Vadderung nodded. “And nearby.” “Why?”
--- End quote ---
More evidence to support that Halloween proper was the pivotal showdown period.
--- Quote ---“This is perfect,” she said. “In one night I’m going to unleash the Sleepers, slay a starborn, put an end to this troublesome mortal city, and begin a war between Summer and Winter. By the time the real assault on the Gates begins, Winter and Summer will be hunting one another in the night, and be so busy gouging out one another’s eyes that they’ll never see what is coming—all thanks to me. And you, of course. I couldn’t have done this at all without you.”
--- End quote ---
Part of their plan is to bypass the banefire but that requires coopting Harry it seems. This is said near the end of the fight when Maeve gets a degree of control over Harry.
--- Quote ---“This is how it is supposed to be,” Maeve purred. “Knight and Lady, together. Fucking like animals. Taking what we please.” Her mouth turned up into a smile. “I thought you’d never let it in. Let it in deep, where I could touch.” Her lovely face took on a feigned, youthful innocence. “But I can touch it now, can’t I?” I growled. I’d forgotten how to do whatever that other thing was. All I could think about was the need. Claim her as a mate. Take whatever I pleased from her. Make her mine. Except . . . Wait. A fluttering surge of pure terror went through me, and it was energy enough to let me rip the Winter from my thoughts, to push it back. It didn’t want to go. It fought me every inch of the way, howling, filled with raw lust for flesh and for blood. My ribs suddenly ached. My head spun a little. I suddenly needed that hand on the ground to keep my balance. Maeve saw it the second I regained control. Her eyelids lowered almost closed, and she breathed, “Ah. So close. But perhaps there is still time. Is that your staff, wizard, or are you just happy to see me?” I bared my teeth and said, “Maeve . . .”
--- End quote ---
That was Maeve attempting to co-opt Harry.
--- Quote ---“I know exactly what I have done,” Maeve snarled. “I have beaten you. This was never about the sleepers, or this accursed isle, or the lives of mortal insects. This was about beating you, you hidebound hag. About using your own games against you. Kill me now, and you risk destroying the balance of Winter and Summer forever, throwing all into chaos.”
--- End quote ---
Maeve then admits it wasn't about the sleepers, or the isle, or the mortals. It was about besting Mab.
So we have a changing goal post of what was to be accomplished throughout the story. I think there were several hurdles that Harry/allies had to jump over to 'win' or not 'lose.'
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[#] Next page
[*] Previous page
Go to full version