The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Queen Succession Rules
raidem:
--- Quote ---If a fetus is sufficiently mortal to prevent a queen from killing it, then it is also sufficiently mortal to make the queen a mother.
--- End quote ---
I don't think it's as black and white as that just yet, there is still a gray area.
--- Quote ---This is the definition of mother:
a woman in relation to a child or children to whom she has given birth.
--- End quote ---
Notice that this defintion of mother doesn't include conception as only defining a mother, there needs to be an actual birth.
--- Quote ---mortal:
subject to death; having a transitory life:
all mortal creatures.
--- End quote ---
There are multiple definitions of mortal some to include human being, I'd say the fetus is a nonborn human being that is subject to death. Therefore the Queens are prohibited from killing it even if it's yet unborn.
So, I wonder if the Lady can conceive and just not give birth all the while preserving her mantle up until the last moment. This would require an ability to bypass the defense mechanism or a preexisting state prior to accepting the Lady mantle, should the mantle even be allowed to choose her.
Looking back, this prohibition of the Lady mantle to go to a mother may have been why the mantle would never go to Mab for safekeeping etc. It would be unmade if it did so.
Arjan:
--- Quote from: Cozarkian on January 17, 2018, 05:34:41 PM ---If a fetus is sufficiently mortal to prevent a queen from killing it, then it is also sufficiently mortal to make the queen a mother.
--- End quote ---
That is based on a Christian definition of human starting at conception but the mantle is not christian. It probably does not see the foetus as a mortal human that can not be killed.
raidem:
--- Quote ---That is why sex was part of the ritual for Mab to make Harry the WK, because it is a tribute to the ritual that the WK makes the Queen.
The other question is whether the WK can always have sex with the Lady (which would add a new twist to why Marve put some much effort into seducing Harry in CD) or whether he needs the Queen mantle to overcome the defenses.
The above preserves the rule of Maiden/Mother while cleanly allowing the transfer of the mantle down the line.
--- End quote ---
Alright, this is taking me down a similar line of thinking. I'll probably copy this over to another thread as it applies there also.
Let's postulate that the WK can have sex with the Lady bypassing the defenses. And, that the Lady won't become Queen until she gives birth. And that if she gives birth, thereby becoming a mother, while wielding the Lady mantle, she will have destroyed that mantle.
Now, i'm going to borrow some of your argument regarding the exception the Knight poses. For my purposes with regard to the Murphy/Mab theory coupled with Murphy pregnant with Marcone Wag, I'd venture that WK Harry having impregnated Murphy prior to her TT will 1) provide a beacon for the Lady mantle, 2) bypass defense restriction within Lady mantle thereby allowing Murphy to attract the Lady mantle while being pregnant.
groinkick:
--- Quote from: raidem on January 17, 2018, 05:22:14 PM ---Yeah, we got one point out of the way.
Now, I'm focusing on the other point. If somehow the Lady mantle is allowed to take a pregnant Lady (not considered mother yet) I don't think the mantle would take action against the fetus as that would probably violate the prohibition regarding the Queens not killing mortals. I see the defense mechanism depicted in Molly's encounter with Ramirez as the first defense mechanism we've seen. If somehow it gets bypassed, and the mantle isn't destroyed by the Lady becoming just short of a operative definition of 'mother', then I think the pregnancy would get inside the mantles defenses such that it couldn't touch it. The mantle would then push the Lady toward becoming Queen at all costs. It wins either way by having the Lady vacate its mantle. Lady dies in attempt, Lady mantle passes. Lady becomes Queen, Lady mantle passes. Each of which would need to occur before 'birth' if that is the definition of 'mother.' This is entirely mute however if conception is considered adequate by the mantle to be a 'mother.' This then would allow for possible sex between the Lady and another with the exception that if such a conception occurred as a result, fulfilling the 'mother' definition, this would then destroy the Lady mantle.
In short, I'd argue the mantle could not cause a miscarriage. This circumstance, if it hadn't already caused the Lady mantle's destruction, would be inside the mantles defenses and prohibited by law that prevents the Queens from killing mortals.
Now, the question becomes if on the off chance this may be accurate, would it be at all relevant. That answer at this point is a probable no. It, in my theories, mainly applies to Murphy and on the chance she TT's into the past pregnant with say Harry's child, who may be Marcone. All of these Wag's are increasingly unlikely when combined together. They also require a more complex storyline to back them.
--- End quote ---
My opinion is that if a woman is pregnant, the Mantle will not take her. Mantles appear to be black, and white. Outside of Nemesis manipulation the Mantles seem to be unchangeable. I don't think the Mantle is capable of going to someone who is pregnant, or ever was pregnant.
raidem:
--- Quote from: groinkick on January 17, 2018, 07:24:23 PM ---My opinion is that if a woman is pregnant, the Mantle will not take her. Mantles appear to be black, and white. Outside of Nemesis manipulation the Mantles seem to be unchangeable. I don't think the Mantle is capable of going to someone who is pregnant, or ever was pregnant.
--- End quote ---
I largely agree. I was focusing on the most extreme case of what is allowed except for its destruction. (I was totally in agreement with you prior to looking further at the quote and the point at which the Lady mantle is destroyed.) That point is defined in Mab's quote:
--- Quote ---"Three Queens of Summer; three Queens of Winter," she said, that alien gaze returning to me. "Maiden, Mother, and Crone. You are the Maiden, Lady Molly. And for you to be otherwise, to become a mother, would be destroy the mantle of power you wear." The mantle protected itself--as it must.
"What?"
She tilted her head and stared at me. "It is all within the law. I suggest you spend a few hours each day meditating on it in the future. In time you will gain and adequate understanding of your limits."
--- End quote ---
(There is also the exception someone suggested that couplings with the Knight as being allowed to bypass the defense mechanisms and rules, etc but short of Lady becoming a 'mother.')
To me, "becoming a mother" is the case which is MOST incompatible with the Lady mantle. So, there seems like circumstances could get stretched to an extreme point before the nuclear point is reached. It's that stretch which is what I'm exploring.
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