The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Queen Succession Rules
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--- Quote from: Arjan on January 16, 2018, 12:51:41 PM ---IIRC there was some woj about some love triangle between Oberon, Titania and Mab. If that was just after they both became Queens with a very high procreation drive and the usual possessiveness and jealousy in overdrive for magical beings then the result would have been spectacular.
--- End quote ---
That was specifically "back around Shakespeare's Day" so it would have been several centuries later.
Cozarkian:
--- Quote from: raidem on January 16, 2018, 01:51:06 AM ---See, I disagree here. I think the Mother 'should' be at least a real life mother. I think that is one of the bedrock principles for the Mother Mantles. If a Lady happens to find herself in the Mother position without being a mother, I think we are in a world of hurt.
So, I favor the following:
--- End quote ---
If the Lady becomes a mother while she is still Lady (before getting the Queen Mother mantle) (click to show/hide) it destroys the Lady mantle , so the text would disagree with you.
Now, it is possible that all 3 mantles go to the nearest suitable vessel and the reason it would have gone to Molly if Harry killed Mab on DR is because Molly was he nearest, not because she was the Lady. I doubt that, but it is possible.
raidem:
No, the text doesn't disagree with me as there are 'if' and 'should' qualifiers being used by me and same 'if' and 'before' qualifiers with you. The text never really had such qualifiers so there is ambiguity in text that could allow wrinkles that we aren't quite expecting. We also have WOJL from Jim that suggest the succession rules are as written until he writes then otherwise so I think we should anticipate curveballs within the 'general' rules.
As to your point about Lady becoming a mother destroying the mantle prior to her ascending, yes that is spelled out but I didn't dispute that within the statement you quoted. As you noted in parenthesized aside, there was a suggestion that the Lady could but in doing so she became Queen. If she didn't become Queen, then yes the mantle would be destroyed. So, the Lady would have to off the Queen in order to procreate or at least come into the Queen position. And, we don't know exactly where the prohibition lies. We know Molly can't have sex, but at what point does the mantle get destroyed. Is it at sex, at conception, at having birth. I mean we know the defense mechanism arises at the sex stage but if you can somehow bypass that...
I think I need to see the exact language Mab used in Molly's short story.
Cozarkian:
--- Quote from: raidem on January 16, 2018, 02:57:43 PM ---There seemed to be the suggestion though that the Lady could but in doing so she became Queen. If she didn't become Queen, then yes the mantle would be destroyed. So, the Lady would have to off the Queen in order to procreate. And, we don't know exactly where the prohibition lies. We know Molly can't have sex, but at what point does the mantle get destroyed. Is it at sex, at conception, at having birth. I mean we know the defense mechanism arises at the sex stage but if you can somehow bypass that...
I think I need to see the exact language Mab used in Molly's short story.
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If the Lady offs the Queen so she can proceate, what do you think the Queen mantle does while waiting for the Lady to do so?
I think the presence of the Queen mantle in the Lady is necessary for the Lady to procreate. As a stronger mantle , it can override the Lady mantle defenses and push the Lady mantle out at the exact moment of conception.
When Mother Summer abdicated, do you really envision that she had to coordinate with the Queen and Lady to make sure the Lady became a mother at the precise moment of abdication?
raidem:
Just amended the prior comment so read that again as I finished posting it to correct anything before I finally published it.
--- Quote ---If the Lady offs the Queen so she can proceate, what do you think the Queen mantle does while waiting for the Lady to do so?
--- End quote ---
--- Quote ---"Three Queens of Summer; three Queens of Winter," she said, that alien gaze returning to me. "Maiden, Mother, and Crone. You are the Maiden, Lady Molly. And for you to be otherwise, to become a mother, would be destroy the mantle of power you wear." The mantle protected itself--as it must.
"What?"
She tilted her head and stared at me. "It is all within the law. I suggest you spend a few hours each daymeditating on it in the future. In time you will gain and adequate understanding of your limits."
--- End quote ---
So, the literal and precise point at which the mantle would be destroyed is for the Lady to become a mother. If the Lady can become Queen up to immediately prior to giving birth by the Queen dying by the Lady's hand direct, indirect, or neither, then it could be possible to maintain a pregnancy up until the time immediately prior to birth. She may even be able to overcome the prohibition against sex without destroying the mantle. To tie this in with my Murphy/Mab pregnant with Marcone or something similar, I could see Murphy gaining the Lady mantle and then having a set point of time in which she'd have to arrange her ascension to Queen, risk destroying the mantle, or giving up the Lady mantle etc before she had her child.
--- Quote ---I think the presence of the Queen mantle in the Lady is necessary for the Lady to procreate. As a stronger mantle , it can override the Lady mantle defenses and push the Lady mantle out at the exact moment of conception.
--- End quote ---
I think the it's absolutely necessary for the Lady to acquire the Queen mantle to give birth. At which point the Lady is considered a mother by the mantle and would be subsequently destroyed is the pivotal question.
--- Quote ---When Mother Summer abdicated, do you really envision that she had to coordinate with the Queen and Lady to make sure the Lady became a mother at the precise moment of abdication?
--- End quote ---
See this is where you have my words and their meaning confused. I said the Queen should need to be a mother prior to assuming the Mother mantle (the part where I suggest the Lady being a mother I'm talking about the case whereby all three Queen mantles are up for grabs and a Lady could push the mantles up to the Queen, but the Mother mantle requires that she be a mother). I didn't say she needed to be a mother to be the Queen. I think the Mother mantle is one such mantle that in an extenuating circumstance in which the succession is not a mother then the mantle may jump ship to reach out to a vessel that is. This is me thinking 'should' not 'would' type argument. Again, I'm arguing a case whereby how it is spelled out within the "law" differs from how we view the 'rules' to be considering fae speak by the Queens and by Jim and less than accurate first person views of those participating within the books.
I think I should talk a bit more about that special case where I think a Mother mantle needs to go to an actual mother. If there is such a rule then it appears that a Lady would never be able to pick up the Mother mantle as the Lady may never be a mother. She could though if she ever became one. (It's a bit complex but I like my Mother Winter and Summer to actually be what their title says they are.)
Done
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