The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Who is the most evil character in the Dresdenverse?
the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh:
--- Quote from: Kindler on December 13, 2017, 03:29:53 PM ---Archangel was not a proportional response to Harry's attack on Bianca. It was an escalation. They went straight for Simon Petrovich, a Senior Council member. It was a major political assassination.
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You don't think that's a reasonable wergild for a member of the red Court aristocracy who had just been promoted ?
--- Quote --- Ortega wanted to delay the conflict so that they could increase their numbers now that they had a better idea of what the White Council can do.
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Which would, by my argument above, take them another couple of centuries at least.
jonas:
--- Quote from: the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh on December 13, 2017, 08:10:03 PM ---What evidence do we have for Nemesis affecting the Reds?
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Bianca actually. Everything about her. Pretty sure Uppity Red Nobles seeking to ascend and intercourt Sorcerous activities were specifically on multiple lists.
--- Quote ---Lots of Outsiders, and Cowl. No Nemesis.
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There by ignoring all connections between Outsiders, Walkers and Nemesis. That Nemesis's presence in CD was manifested by a Walker and a bunch of minor outsiders trying to break open the Max security Prison.
and actually, if you look at how the Fae pay lip service to the Balance/rent by not violating Hope, Love or Faith, I can directly connect here what you call N to something not directly Nemesis itself. Hope is balance with Fear, Fae service is Duty,(which I can totally find a complex paper someone else wrote on why Duty is a warriors form of Hope, but I lack the ability to sufficiently explain to my own satisfaction) Faith is keeping their word and Love is respecting Homestead laws(which love is the primary force of empowerment in a familial nature) So, Maeve breaking her bond to mab had more to do with Fearbringers power than another's... meaning Harry's 'sapper' theory is also skewed from the truth...
--- Quote ---What needs explanation that has not already been covered?
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What's been satisfactorily explained?
If anything were we wouldn't have a debate on the boards about it... so pretty much anything needing discussed
--- Quote ---Harry likes big simple one-size-fits-all conspiracy theories. The Black Council serves as one for him in PG, and he applies it to a pile of things where there are as many as five plausible different causes. Nemesis is the same as of CD, and I find it equally plausible, that is, not at all.
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But your insisting the opposite it feels like, that anything not Nemesis is not related to Nemesis..
--- Quote ---that fits also with Nemesis being a very limited, faerie-specific infection that is a tool of Cowl and his allies, rather than the global contagion Harry likes to think it is.
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Nemesis infects Fairie specifically and easily because that's where they got their power, that's why Mab has an aspect of Judgement. From the Literal Greek Goddess Nemesis, and the Scales, those are HER scales. they fed her to the stone table and split the power and the image so that their would be no mirror not already balanced inside reality. So she'd have no foothold. Anything that disturbs the alloy of fairie has Nemesis in it's cracks even if Nemesis didn't do it herself.
--- Quote ---The assumption that it is trying to do anything rather than one more weapon in the game seems unfounded to me
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It's actually a quote from something else iirc. Mayhaps the Yeats second coming,which is ALL about the coming apocalypse and is specifically mentioned by Murphy whenever things are getting wonky, also quoted by Maeve about being the 'falcon'. Nemesis is the destabilizing factor and then he quotes something that's been reference all over regarding that same destabilization...
--- Quote ---Namshiel's disappearance is perfectly well explained by it being cut down and any of a number of people there stealing the coin for their own reasons.
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Leaving out the Arctis Tor events... very selective reasoning on that.
--- Quote ---Described by whom, exactly, and what are they supposed to know.
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Multiple places, of course if we take everything said as wrong, then we have no idea what going on and neither you a leg to stand on as I can point this out too for literally everything, as everything is from Harry's perspective. So saying multiple sources are inherently lying or wrong becomes and endless cycle.
--- Quote ---We don't need Nemesis to explain factional differences within the Red Court. We have the plausible explanation of outside sorcerors, whom we know they work with, manipulating them, and we have Cowl and Mavra as plausible candidates.
We don't need Nemesis to explain the White Court's differences, we see Cowl manipulating them. We don't need Nemesis to explain Victor Sells, we have the evidence that that was a known Red Court spell he was using pointed out in Changes, And we have the Red Court researcher in "Love Hurts" as a plausible alternate explanation for where the hexenwulf belts in FM come from.
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Quite frankly as Mr. GK is the resident(as in resident of fricken reality) expert on said things I wouldn't see why we should simply dismiss him either. We have Odins comment about Harry not yet seeing who the real players are too, but that won't count I suppose... and just so I feel like i'm not the only one getting holes poked into them, for what purpose did the Red court thereby empower the Shadowman to do what he did in SF? Seems you like to have all your ducks in a row, what you got there? Cause fyi, it's also surmised Raith and his books of Magic were involved, what with the Name of Shadowmans old company having the word Silver in it and Lust being the most effective spellframe... funny that, a Red used spell is best used with Whites Lust power...
--- Quote ---Nemesis being behind all this stuff is unnescessary.
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Nemesis having Nothing to do with it all seems unlikely.
Arjan:
--- Quote from: the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh on December 13, 2017, 08:37:01 PM ---Mab is lending her approval to the Council's legitimate counterstrike against an Accords violator. The Knights move in mysterious ways, and Uriel's involvement is by no means visible, nor are there witnesses around to proclaim Odin's involvement to the world.
Even if nobody except Eb on the Grey Council is White Council, to the rest of the world it is a White Council attack.
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Switching between real and perceived strength. The perceived strength of the council certainly grew after Chichen Itza but the real strength did not and now they are at war with the Fomor.
And the red courts actions and aims were not based on the white councils perceived strength after they were destroyed but on how strong the white council seemed to be around Summer Knight and that was weak.
--- Quote ---Which proves his allegiance as much as the tengu showing up proves Eb's. Getting power from other sources by being clever is what wizards do. Doesn't make them not Council members.
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In this case it did not prove the white councils strength, it proved that other powers wanted the red court gone.
--- Quote ---Assertion is not argument. Do you have any logical reason for discounting the notion that Harry taking him as clueless is 75% Harry being prejudiced and 25% Langtry being skilled enough a politician to give a misleading impression when it serves his purposes? Or for discounting his surety at the beginning of Changes?
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I assert things when they seem overly obvious to me.
The merlin is not shown to be as peceptive as say the gatekeeper.
--- Quote ---For values of "ally" who do nothing to help. The Fomor taking advantage of the chaos when the Reds go down does not look like an alliance to me.
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They are now at war with the white council and that started exactly at the same moment the big red court attack was supposed to happen. That is coordinated and that would have helped the red court enormously if it was still there to profit from it. They did not back out when they heard about the downfal of the red court because by then it was probably too late.
--- Quote ---if anything, it looks like them planning on the Reds going down.
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Attacking the white council exactly at the moment of the great red court attack is a strange way of achieving that. Doing nothing would have been better.
--- Quote ---"simply" and "clearly" read as assumptions to me. Their warlock "allies" are intentionally abandoning them to my mind.
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That is not taking into consideration the nature of that party. Big sacrifices on high altars are feasts were everyone eats. You don't invite food to these parties as guests unless you want to eat them. This was a private vampire thing
--- Quote ---I have not, that I recall, argued that the Red Court were not complete idiots to underestimate the Council.
Which requires casually ignoring that the second youngest of the Senior Council, all by himself, can pull satellites from the sky and trigger massive volcanoes. The Senior Council's ability to nuke Chichen Itza from orbit at any time seems pretty well established to me.
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I don't see evidence for that.
--- Quote ---After four hundred years of peaceful co-existence, and willingness to abide by two separate attempts to end the war peacefully and legally?
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There is no reason to believe the red council was peaceful all that time, there is more in the world than the white council to fight with. They expanded from their original base in central america to a far bigger empire just before their fall. That does not happen without war.
--- Quote ---I believe we have WoJ that Mab did not give people a choice about signing on to the Accords.
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Sure but Mab is not there to protect puppies. The accords leave a lot of room for war and killing. They are not there to protect the weak but to give tools to end endless cycles of pointless violence. But both parties need to agree to stop the war.
--- Quote ---Half the red Court seem to be persuaded the war can be won, by and with the aid of their warlock "allies". The other half, rightly realise not. Harry in changes thinking they have an insane leadership is oversimplifying what is clearly a power struggle.
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There is a lot of power struggle in the lower ranks but the red king and his inner circle seemed in control. It is normal in some dictatorship to encourage conflicts between your underlings to keep them better in control and distract their attention from the king.
--- Quote ---Why do you keep calling it a pretence?
The Council was quite ready to accept the one in SK. And I am trusting Susan's assessment of Ortega in DM at least as much as Ortega himself.
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And I am trusting Shiro and Thomas who both know better.
Arjan:
--- Quote from: the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh on December 13, 2017, 08:39:56 PM ---You don't think that's a reasonable wergild for a member of the red Court aristocracy who had just been promoted ?
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She was not one of the original Maya and she was not on the top level of the pyramid by far. Killing a comparable member of the council would be something like an experienced warden or something, Morgan would be pushing it. A senior council member with a strong squad of combat mages is overkill.
Senior council must be comparable with inner circle if there is even a pretence of the red court and the white council of equal strength. If Bianca was equal to a senior council member that would mean the red court was far stronger than the white council.
That could have been the message as well. One of our minor nobility is equal to your top people. You are nothing. Surrender to our terms.
Bianca was minor nobility nothing more. The red court had loads of them.
wardenferry419:
I really don't think there is common ground or mutual disagreement to be reached on this topic.
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