The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Who is the most evil character in the Dresdenverse?
Arjan:
--- Quote from: the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh on December 13, 2017, 02:19:31 PM ---Sure they were. The Grey Council are visibly wizards. Harry is a White Council member. To anyone who doesn't have the inside information we do from Harry's viewpoint, that's clearly a White Council operation.
--- End quote ---
Odin, Mab, Lea, The knights of the cross, an archangel, ....
And arguably Harry was there for Winter and not for the white council. His extra power surely came from there.
--- Quote ---Seems clear to me Arthur Langtry knows it's coming.
--- End quote ---
He is as clueless as ever, I do not think he is in the grey council. He was preparing the counterattack when everything was already finished.
--- Quote ---I'd argue that an accurate assessment of the Council's strength is why the Red Court have not been at war for them for centuries, and waited until they could put the Council legally in the wrong to do so.
--- End quote ---
The red court had simply other priorities first.
--- Quote ---Their supposed allies hanging them out to dry is pretty visible there, yes.
--- End quote ---
Their Fomor allies coordinating their attack with the red court is clearly visible. Their warlock allies were simply not invited in what clearly was a huge party for vampires. Especially because they were all more concerned with their internal struggle for dominance than their white council enemies which shows how seriously they took the danger. Not.
--- Quote ---My previous post should show why I do not agree with that take on things.
--- End quote ---
Without Winter Chichen Itza was not even possible.
--- Quote ---It's there if you can see through Haryr's prejudices.
--- End quote ---
Not even in a loose remark or observation, nowhere. Not from anyone in the white council. They have a clear idea about who is human and who is not.
For them the single killing of a human with magic is a greater crime than the killing of a complete vampire court.
--- Quote ---The Accords, sfaict, protects all its signatories, Council or Red Court. Hence, for example, Marcone being keen to sign up. I can totally buy tha structure having an anti-Outsider purpose.
--- End quote ---
They offer very little protection. They offer structure if the parties want to use it.
--- Quote ---Since when does the person who starts the attacks make the decision about war or peace ? It's the choice of how to respond that determines whether that is a war.
--- End quote ---
To attack is to start the hostilities, that is really starting the war. Not defending yourself just makes it a very short war after which the war atrocities can begin. Nobody is expecting the council not to defend themselves anyway because being captured means being turned so choosing to attack means choosing war and not negotiations.
--- Quote ---Disagreed entirely. The Red Court is deeply divided.
--- End quote ---
Sure and we see in Changes that the war was merely a tool in their internal conflicts. Just like roman generals attacked barbarians to increase their personal power in the roman empire. It shows how seriously they took the white council, not very.
If they really thought the white council a serious enemy they would be more united. The red king had the power to enforce that but for internal political reasons he chose not to.
--- Quote ---There would not have been a peace offer after Archangel if the Reds thought the Council was a pushover, and Ortega would not have been working so hard to stop the war in DM if he thought the war was winnable.
--- End quote ---
That was just to see how far they could push the white council and to keep the pretense of being the aggrieved party under the accords. trusting Ortega's words is foolish.Besides the offers were designed to be rejected.
Kindler:
Archangel was not a proportional response to Harry's attack on Bianca. It was an escalation. They went straight for Simon Petrovich, a Senior Council member. It was a major political assassination.
They had no real interest in peace. Ortega wanted to delay the conflict so that they could increase their numbers now that they had a better idea of what the White Council can do.
Arjan:
For a proportional attack you go for someone with a similar position. Then you can make peace with the other family without one family paying too much weregeld to the other.
Read the Icelandic saga's, in particular Njal's saga, to get an idea. But for that both parties must believe the other party can continue the feud and both parties must agree the cost for that is just too high even with all the emotions pushing them to revenge.
The alternative is killing them all or cowering them. Looking only at the proportionality of the attack cowering into submission was a possibility but that never ends well either.
the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh:
--- Quote from: jonas on December 13, 2017, 02:38:17 PM ---N has appeared or messed with every court, Reds in the beginning, likely inspiring the later division in the Reds in CH,
--- End quote ---
What evidence do we have for Nemesis affecting the Reds?
--- Quote --- Cowl trying to control the 'election' in WN of Wamps,(Outsiders, OUTSIDERS EVERYWHERE!),
--- End quote ---
Lots of Outsiders, and Cowl. No Nemesis.
--- Quote --- Mavra seems to be the most cuddly, buddy, buddy N ally ever... I've not seen any explanations or anything that explains anything to satisfaction.
--- End quote ---
What needs explanation that has not already been covered?
Harry likes big simple one-size-fits-all conspiracy theories. The Black Council serves as one for him in PG, and he applies it to a pile of things where there are as many as five plausible different causes. Nemesis is the same as of CD, and I find it equally plausible, that is, not at all.
--- Quote ---Other than intentionally passing along an Nfected knife to Lea? For Cowl that would seem to be enough.
--- End quote ---
And that fits also with Nemesis being a very limited, faerie-specific infection that is a tool of Cowl and his allies, rather than the global contagion Harry likes to think it is.
--- Quote ---Outsider connections, Peabody's 'the End is Nigh' command is pretty telling when your lookin at what N's trying to do of course.
--- End quote ---
The assumption that it is trying to do anything rather than one more weapon in the game seems unfounded to me
--- Quote ---Nico doing it too means nothing certainly? It's later disappearance...
--- End quote ---
Namshiel's disappearance is perfectly well explained by it being cut down and any of a number of people there stealing the coin for their own reasons.
--- Quote ---You can always choose to see things a certain way, but i'd like to see what evidence there is N is a fae only thing(especially when it's been described as a human affliction too,
--- End quote ---
Described by whom, exactly, and what are they supposed to know.
We don't need Nemesis to explain factional differences within the Red Court. We have the plausible explanation of outside sorcerors, whom we know they work with, manipulating them, and we have Cowl and Mavra as plausible candidates.
We don't need Nemesis to explain the White Court's differences, we see Cowl manipulating them. We don't need Nemesis to explain Victor Sells, we have the evidence that that was a known Red Court spell he was using pointed out in Changes, And we have the Red Court researcher in "Love Hurts" as a plausible alternate explanation for where the hexenwulf belts in FM come from.
Nemesis being behind all this stuff is unnescessary.
the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh:
--- Quote from: Arjan on December 13, 2017, 02:59:50 PM ---Odin, Mab, Lea, The knights of the cross, an archangel, ....
--- End quote ---
Mab is lending her approval to the Council's legitimate counterstrike against an Accords violator. The Knights move in mysterious ways, and Uriel's involvement is by no means visible, nor are there witnesses around to proclaim Odin's involvement to the world.
Even if nobody except Eb on the Grey Council is White Council, to the rest of the world it is a White Council attack.
--- Quote ---And arguably Harry was there for Winter and not for the white council. His extra power surely came from there.
--- End quote ---
Which proves his allegiance as much as the tengu showing up proves Eb's. Getting power from other sources by being clever is what wizards do. Doesn't make them not Council members.
--- Quote ---He is as clueless as ever, I do not think he is in the grey council.
--- End quote ---
Assertion is not argument. Do you have any logical reason for discounting the notion that Harry taking him as clueless is 75% Harry being prejudiced and 25% Langtry being skilled enough a politician to give a misleading impression when it serves his purposes? Or for discounting his surety at the beginning of Changes?
--- Quote --- Their Fomor allies coordinating their attack with the red court is clearly visible.
--- End quote ---
For values of "ally" who do nothing to help. The Fomor taking advantage of the chaos when the Reds go down does not look like an alliance to me. if anything, it looks like them planning on the Reds going down.
--- Quote ---Their warlock allies were simply not invited in what clearly was a huge party for vampires.
--- End quote ---
"simply" and "clearly" read as assumptions to me. Their warlock "allies" are intentionally abandoning them to my mind.
--- Quote --- Especially because they were all more concerned with their internal struggle for dominance than their white council enemies which shows how seriously they took the danger.
--- End quote ---
I have not, that I recall, argued that the Red Court were not complete idiots to underestimate the Council.
--- Quote --- Without Winter Chichen Itza was not even possible.
--- End quote ---
Which requires casually ignoring that the second youngest of the Senior Council, all by himself, can pull satellites from the sky and trigger massive volcanoes. The Senior Council's ability to nuke Chichen Itza from orbit at any time seems pretty well established to me.
--- Quote ---Not even in a loose remark or observation, nowhere. Not from anyone in the white council. They have a clear idea about who is human and who is not.
For them the single killing of a human with magic is a greater crime than the killing of a complete vampire court.
--- End quote ---
After four hundred years of peaceful co-existence, and willingness to abide by two separate attempts to end the war peacefully and legally?
--- Quote --- They offer very little protection. They offer structure if the parties want to use it.
--- End quote ---
I believe we have WoJ that Mab did not give people a choice about signing on to the Accords.
--- Quote ---Sure and we see in Changes that the war was merely a tool in their internal conflicts. Just like roman generals attacked barbarians to increase their personal power in the roman empire.
--- End quote ---
Half the red Court seem to be persuaded the war can be won, by and with the aid of their warlock "allies". The other half, rightly realise not. Harry in changes thinking they have an insane leadership is oversimplifying what is clearly a power struggle.
--- Quote ---That was just to see how far they could push the white council and to keep the pretense of being the aggrieved party under the accords.
--- End quote ---
Why do you keep calling it a pretence?
--- Quote --- trusting Ortega's words is foolish.Besides the offers were designed to be rejected.
--- End quote ---
The Council was quite ready to accept the one in SK. And I am trusting Susan's assessment of Ortega in DM at least as much as Ortega himself.
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[#] Next page
[*] Previous page
Go to full version