Author Topic: bonies conception is in the book small favors  (Read 7743 times)

Offline Froklsnt

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Re: bonies conception is in the book small favors
« Reply #15 on: October 03, 2017, 05:09:23 PM »
Harry isn't looking for Thomas in Small Favor because he's off pretending to be Harry most of the time; he's looking for him in the next book, Turn Coat. Harry uses Little Chicago shortly after Mab messes with his head, to send the Gruffs on the wild goose chase with Mister's help, so I don't think they could've removed that. What led him to the island was Nicodemus setting the meet there.

There's no real need to use Little Chicago in Turn Coat; Harry finds out that Thomas is missing, gets the lead from Vince Graver, follows it directly to the lawyer, soulgazes her, finds out that the White Court was involved, and heads to see Lara with Luccio. That's when the Skinwalker tells him that he's got Thomas, and gives him all the contact information he needs to set a meeting later on. He mentions that it would be near impossible to find the skinwalker with magic as a handwave, and has Lara try to trace the cell phone instead. Meanwhile, Harry's balancing dealing with Morgan and keeping him alive while finding the traitor. Little Chicago would just have taken him valuable time (I recall it taking him something like an hour or two to get ready to use it each time) when he's got other stuff to do.

I'm not saying it's totally impossible, but that the motivation and means behind it is sketchy, in my opinion.

I was incorrect about the timeline of events, yes. The original theory I was referencing is by Ms Duck, has a "Strong Evidence" label on theories list, and can be found in post 2 here.

Quote from: Ms Duck
Small Favor
     
 Now this is where life gets interesting. Mab outright (she admits it) takes Harry’s blasting rod and then makes him forget she took it. What she leaves behind is the image of a tarp, and a splitting headache. SF 212:
Quote
 
Quote
“pain stabbed into my head, ice picks plunging into both temples. I flinched and doubled over. Blasting rod. Familiar words.  I fought to summon an image of what went with the words, but I could not find anything. I knew the memory associated with those words, but try as I might, I couldn’t drag it out. It was like a shape covered by some heavy tarp…”
   The second thing that happens in this book is Harry meets the isle for the first time.   There is also a small in-joke here; when researching gruff, harry find a Calvin and Hobbes book. For the non fans, the last strip of the comic had Calvin ( the too bright smart alleck) and Hobbes ( his wiser but snarky and horny friend only he can talk too) head off into a eternal winter wonderland of snow, magic, and snow goons. (yes, Mab left him a book)(that has a beware of Hobbes in joke)
 
Turn Coat and the two clue bats:

The first clue is on page 211   
After Thomas is taken, Harry searched for him magically, but never uses or mentions Little Chicago. (although damaged in WN, it is fixed by this time, note SJ).. all he describes is:
Quote
Quote
“a long table in the center of the room is covered by a canvas tarp.
.   
  Now it is important that not only does he not mention it ( he does in every other book, whether he uses it or not, he is very proud of it.) but Bob does not mention it either.    And almost the very first thing he mentions in the books is his splitting blinding headache.

The second clue is on page 215   
  Mouse come over to talk to him, gets Harrys attention, and then when Harry bends down, harry gets a second blinding headache, and loses his train of thought. This is important because it is shown later that Mouse could have found Thomas, and he certainly believed he was a match for shaggy, or at least that harry and he together were.So someone covered the table, removed the memory from Harry and Bob, and gave Harry a headache just in time to prevent him from rescuing Thomas.   

 Why would Mab do this?
  Two possible reasons: First, she believes Harry and Mouse were not a match for shaggy, or she needed Harry to bond with Demonreach for another later purpose, and Thomas being in trouble was the goad she used to get harry to do something this drastic.


The clue bats she is referring to are a WoJ about two hidden clues in TC:
Quote from: Jim Butcher, Forum Post: Turn Coat Book Discussion *MAJOR SPOILERS*
The clue bat is a tough thing to guesstimate.  I mean, I hit y'all with at least two other major things in this book that no one seems to have picked up on at all, so far. :)



What is relevant to our specific discussion here is that Bob was in the room with Harry, helping him go through tracking spells in the lab, trying to find Thomas, immediately after he learned of his capture by Shagnasty:

Quote from: Cold Days - Chapter 29
Two hours and a half a dozen attempted tracking spell later, I snarled and slapped a stack of notepads off a corner of a table in my sub-basement laboratory. They thwacked against a wall beneath Bob the Skulls's shelf, and fell to the concrete floor. "It was to be expected." Bob the Skull said very quietly.

So he did put time into trying to find Thomas with magic, but neglected to use his single most valuable tool for this sort of problem. He doesn't even mention it as an option, or even acknowledge its existence while running down a description of the room. Ms Duck points out how out of character that is, Harry is immensely proud of LC and name drops in every other book it exists in. And it is just as odd that Bob doesn't suggest using it, it's had quite a few successful outings by now. So why not?

Restating my theory with the proper timing, I think Mab has influenced / made a deal with Bob, Bonnie, and/or Id Harry by this point, agreeing to nudge Harry toward Demonreach in exchange for hiding Bonnie's existence from Harry for now. And if Bob was in on Bonnie's existence, it paints his request for a backup vessel in a whole other light, doesn't it?

One more stray piece of evidence, Harry's intuition (aka Id Harry) is the one that comes up with the idea to take Morgan to Demonreach, after brainstorming with Murphy in TC Chapter 34.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2017, 06:43:24 PM by Froklsnt »

Offline Kindler

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Re: bonies conception is in the book small favors
« Reply #16 on: October 04, 2017, 01:14:56 PM »
...snip...

Ah, okay, with the full context it makes a bit more sense. I thought the theory was that Mab had done this in Turn Coat, even though she didn't show up in it. I'm in the middle of my reread of the series, and am just at the point in Turn Coat that Binder shows up, so I'll keep this in mind more as I finish.

Does he even mention Little Chicago in Changes or beyond? During Changes, he mentions the new summoning ring, but I don't remember specifically if he describes the giant model in the middle of the room. After Changes, he laments the loss of a lot of his stuff, but I can't recall if he brings that up specifically. In fact, given the amount of energy it contained, wasn't that in danger of exploding with all the fire? If he'd stopped maintaining it to the point that the power drained out over time, that would indicate that this is correct—that Mab took the memories from he and Bob and never returned them.

Offline Froklsnt

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Re: bonies conception is in the book small favors
« Reply #17 on: October 04, 2017, 04:57:35 PM »
Does he even mention Little Chicago in Changes or beyond? During Changes, he mentions the new summoning ring, but I don't remember specifically if he describes the giant model in the middle of the room. After Changes, he laments the loss of a lot of his stuff, but I can't recall if he brings that up specifically. In fact, given the amount of energy it contained, wasn't that in danger of exploding with all the fire? If he'd stopped maintaining it to the point that the power drained out over time, that would indicate that this is correct—that Mab took the memories from he and Bob and never returned them.

I just checked, and Harry does in fact note Little Chicago in his run-down of the lab in Changes, right before the FBI chases him out. So it wasn't deleted from his mind permanently. I like the thought that the magic on it degraded during that time, preventing a huge boom during the fire. We've got precedent for that kinda thing not being an issue though. In SmF, Harry comments that the Denarian's circle to contain the Archive could have "blown the top off of Demonreach" if something had gone wrong during set up, but he's able to smash it to bits with no such explosion. Apparently, for whatever reason, the energy of a working does not release quite so violently when it's being unmade, compared to when it's being built and not yet stable.

Let us not forget the text Jim spends after Harry's talk with Mab at the end SmF, where he ponders whether or not Mab just took something else from him:
Quote from: Small Favor - Chapter 46
I spent a little while poking at my memory, and trying to see if there were any if there were any holes in it that hadn't been there before. Then I spent a while more wondering if I'd be able to tell if she had taken something else. "Jesus Christ" I breathed.

Jim wouldn't spend text on this without paying it off. In his own words, he's too lazy. But it can't actually have happened right then, because LC gets mentioned in the short stories in between SmF and TC. There are a couple ways to explain this. Either Id Harry / Bonnie did it without Mab's direct intervention during TC, or Mab did it at some point around TC and took the memory of the entire encounter along with the memory of LC.

Mab getting to Bob is no problem, she had free access to the lab whenever she wanted, since Lea was a Sidhe-sicle during this period. What I would need to listen back for is if Molly presents a problem to this theory, if she was in the lab at all during TC, and was in a position to somehow bring LC up with Harry. The lab is only in one scene in the whole book I believe, so I'd guess not, but I'm unsure.

Offline Kindler

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Re: bonies conception is in the book small favors
« Reply #18 on: October 04, 2017, 05:22:35 PM »
I just checked, and Harry does in fact note Little Chicago in his run-down of the lab in Changes, right before the FBI chases him out. So it wasn't deleted from his mind permanently. I like the thought that the magic on it degraded during that time, preventing a huge boom during the fire. We've got precedent for that kinda thing not being an issue though. In SmF, Harry comments that the Denarian's circle to contain the Archive could have "blown the top off of Demonreach" if something had gone wrong during set up, but he's able to smash it to bits with no such explosion. Apparently, for whatever reason, the energy of a working does not release quite so violently when it's being unmade, compared to when it's being built and not yet stable.

I'm mostly thinking about the duel at the end of White Night, when Ramirez cuts through the enchanted bracer with his Warden sword. That releases the energy spectacularly violently. I couldn't imagine Little Chicago has less; Harry mentions pouring energy into it nightly for something like a month. My question is basically whether or not fire is different enough from a Warden's enchantment-unbinding blade that something similar wouldn't happen. I view the circle on Demonreach as something qualitatively different, closer to a ritual, while Little Chicago is an enchanted artifact with an energy reservoir.

Quote
Let us not forget the text Jim spends after Harry's talk with Mab at the end SmF, where he ponders whether or not Mab just took something else from him:
Jim wouldn't spend text on this without paying it off. In his own words, he's too lazy. But it can't actually have happened right then, because LC gets mentioned in the short stories in between SmF and TC. There are a couple ways to explain this. Either Id Harry / Bonnie did it without Mab's direct intervention during TC, or Mab did it at some point around TC and took the memory of the entire encounter along with the memory of LC.

I'm still not sure why this would happen in Turn Coat without Mab's direction. Bonnie would have to not only be aware of the situation, but be able to steer Harry toward Demonreach. Why would Bonnie even want to do that, assuming she had the ability to do it at all? It just seems like she's limiting Harry's options and putting him (and herself, by extension) in further danger, and I don't see the gain behind it, unless Mab (or Uriel, or someone) is cluing her into the whole situation, which I don't see happening.

Quote
Mab getting to Bob is no problem, she had free access to the lab whenever she wanted, since Lea was a Sidhe-sicle during this period. What I would need to listen back for is if Molly presents a problem to this theory, if she was in the lab at all during TC, and was in a position to somehow bring LC up with Harry. The lab is only in one scene in the whole book I believe, so I'd guess not, but I'm unsure.

Molly mentions that she was checking on her potions when Morgan attacked her the first time, but evidently didn't make it to the lab before Mouse sat on her. I haven't noticed her going down there at all thus far, but I'll keep it in mind during my reread.

I'm just not sure when Mab would've done this to him during Turn Coat. I haven't found any time that's unaccounted for yet. The only thing that makes sense is the nascent Bonnie's complicity, but that would require motive.

Heh. Maybe Molly messed with his head.

Doesn't Harry mention having a headache in Ghost Story, then insisting that he's allowed to have headaches anyway? Maybe that was another memory gap he stumbled upon that carried over to his soul walkabout.

Offline Froklsnt

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Re: bonies conception is in the book small favors
« Reply #19 on: October 04, 2017, 08:16:13 PM »
Heh. Maybe Molly messed with his head.

Doesn't Harry mention having a headache in Ghost Story, then insisting that he's allowed to have headaches anyway? Maybe that was another memory gap he stumbled upon that carried over to his soul walkabout.

Fun idea, I'll look for that on my next through GS.

I'm still not sure why this would happen in Turn Coat without Mab's direction. Bonnie would have to not only be aware of the situation, but be able to steer Harry toward Demonreach. Why would Bonnie even want to do that, assuming she had the ability to do it at all? It just seems like she's limiting Harry's options and putting him (and herself, by extension) in further danger, and I don't see the gain behind it, unless Mab (or Uriel, or someone) is cluing her into the whole situation, which I don't see happening.

I'm just not sure when Mab would've done this to him during Turn Coat. I haven't found any time that's unaccounted for yet. The only thing that makes sense is the nascent Bonnie's complicity, but that would require motive.

As we talk through this more, I think Id Harry makes a much better culprit than Bonnie. Molly admits to having met with Id Harry when she was in his head getting Bonnie out at the end of SG, so it seems entirely possible to me that Mab could have met with him any of several times she was in Harry's head....

In fact, let me grow this one more step into full blown WAG territory. I think this idea just wandered too far afield from the original purpose of this thread, I'm going to start a new one.