The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers

Vampires and Evil, a philosophical rabbit hole.

<< < (4/11) > >>

jonas:

--- Quote from: DonBugen on September 23, 2017, 06:28:15 PM ---That is a way, way loose translation of lust, and I don't think it applies in this situation.  By boiling it down to "a desire that cannot be filled" then essentially everyone in The Dresden Files is a creaure of lust.
--- End quote ---
Not even sure what book it's in off the top of my head let alone which book ks where to pull the quote from, go reread it. Harry applies famine directly to the Whites perspective on how they would define reality in charge, zero satisfaction
--- Quote ---This is the human condition.
--- End quote ---
Indeed ;)
--- Quote ---Otherwise then, Molly lusts for freedom and independence, Butters lusts for respect in his job, Karrin lusts to play the hero and help people, Harry lusts for quiet alone time on his couch with a good paperback.  Sure, Marcone wants power and influence, and gets them.  Doesn't make him a creature of lust.
--- End quote ---
By a narrow definition, if your not going to look at the thematics and how it's actually described. Why does Marcone do what he does? what does he WANT?
--- Quote --- And it doesn't make the White Court's acts of emotional draining more "lusty" than, say, the Red court, whose feeding practices were VERY sexualized. 
--- End quote ---
Not really what i'm saying at all...


--- Quote ---Besides, the foil of Marcone is certainly not love.  As far as we can see, love has nothing to do with the reason why he protects children.  The evidence portrayed in Death Masks and Small Favor lean more in favor of immense guilt and shame, rather than any sort of feeling of love on his behalf.  I doubt he even knew Helen's child before he put her in a coma.
--- End quote ---
Ahem, you don't feel guilt if you don't genuinely care. See his criminal Empire. Guilt stems from empathy, from Caring. An i'd bet just about anything if we don't see Marcone with the sword of love in MM, we'll see it in our timeline.


--- Quote ---I think that you're loosening the translation in order to fit your theory, and in doing so you're losing the significance of the sin of lust.  After all, defining it as a desire that cannot be quenched is pretty much identical to gluttony, which would also be pretty identical to greed.
--- End quote ---
And I think you just don't see what I see in the same pic bro. And yes I've already brainstormed into the fact multiple facets of the 7 sins are actually different versions of the negative aspects of the 3 primary maleficent powers. The facts and supposition came before the theory Watson, and i'm deeply insulted here. I know theory better then to make such an elementary mistake boy.
--- Quote ---Besides, if we're matching up sins to courts, it seems like Wrath would fit the black court better in any case.
--- End quote ---
no idea, that was my on the spot guess but I've gone through it enough to HAVE notes fyi...


--- Quote ---I think that your attempt to define the vampire courts as being similar to the seven deadly sins is far too Catholic to really fit the pan-theological world of the Dresden Files.  Jim's stated that we see a lot of Christianity simply because TDF takes place in the USA and Europe mostly, where Christianity has its greatest foothold, but that the same powers would be very different in other regions.  Trying to make the Jade Court, for example, fit into the Seven Deadly Sins would mean taking a group which resides in China and doesn't leave the Yangtze River Valley area, and subjecting them to a paradigm that at most has a small number of persecuted followers in their area.  Beings in the Dresden Files look very different from different perspectives.

--- End quote ---
I'm being TWC/TWG centric, don't know about Catholicism but considering that's the Christianity Jim has experience with i'd imagine that's about right. And you seem to be forgetting perspective changes and the fact most sins are found in euro-Asian lore, just not so organized. We're dealing with renditions and generational activities in which we KNOW TWC was a thing in. It's actually an idea based off of the jewish Seraphim and us living on 'gaia' with Nemesis(where the sin was inbalanced towards) acting in our inbalances against us so... not so Christian centric as you think. I can also show various other ways, Buddism, Taoism, ect were incorporated into the set up. If you keep to my starborn generation theory as it was originally posted it actually deals with coexisting event's from generational theory fyi.
Not sure I like the cut of your reply here don, you make some high assumptions about how much forethought I put into this.. An let's try to keep off of religious angles like that, 'it's too catholic'. Na man, It just is.

*My original points were towards the fact Woj states outright he had 7 courts in his original idea but he he'd only fleshed out 3-4 really well, And towards a reasoning behind this fact.

DonBugen:

--- Quote ---Not sure I like the cut of your reply here don, you make some high assumptions about how much forethought I put into this.. An let's try to keep off of religious angles like that, 'it's too catholic'. Na man, It just is.
--- End quote ---
Honestly, I really do apologize if my response stepped over the line at all.  I was speaking of "seven deadly sins" in the context in which they were created in the Catholic church, as cardinal sins (vs. venial sins) which is something only held as religiously important within the Catholic faith.  If you're speaking of it in the popular, historical, or secular sense, then my apologies.  And also, I apologize if I came off as just blandly dismissing a theory you've been working on for a while.


--- Quote ---Not even sure what book it's in off the top of my head let alone which book ks where to pull the quote from, go reread it. Harry applies famine directly to the Whites perspective on how they would define reality in charge, zero satisfaction
--- End quote ---
I know the passage you're talking about, but I don't think Dresden refers to famine at all.  It's in chapter seven of Turn Coat.

--- Quote ---"Thanks," I said, and followed my brother into a scene that split the difference between a Dionysian bacchanal and a Fellini flick.

There was no white light inside Zero. Most of it was red, punctuated in places with pools of blue and plenty of black lights scattered everywhere so that even where shadows were thickest, some colors jumped out in disquieting luminescence. Cigarette smoke hung in a pall over the large room, a distance-distorting haze under the black lights.

We had entered on a kind of balcony that overlooked the dance floor below. Music pounded, the bass beat so loud that I could feel it in my lower stomach. Lights flashed and swayed in synchronicity. The floor was crowded with sweating, moving bodies dressed in a broad spectrum of clothing, from full leather coverings including a whole-head hood, at one extreme, to one girl clad in a few strips of electrical tape on the other. There was a bar down by the dance floor, and tables scattered around its outskirts under a thirty-foot-high ceiling. A few cages hung about eight feet over the dance floor, each containing a young man or woman in provocative clothing.

Stairways and catwalks led up to about a dozen platforms that thrust out from the walls, where patrons could sit and overlook the scene below while gaining a measure of privacy for themselves. Most of the platforms were furnished with couches and chaise longues rather than tables and chairs. There were more exotic bits of furniture up on the platforms, as well: the giant X shape of a St. Andrew's cross, which was currently supporting the bound form of a young man, his wrists and ankles secured to the cross, his face to the wood, his hair falling down over his naked back. Another platform had a shiny brass pole in its center, and a pair of girls danced around it, in the middle of a circle of men and women sprawled over the couches and lounges.

Everywhere I looked, people were doing things that would have gotten them arrested anywhere else. Couples, threesomes, foursomes, and nineteensomes were fully engaged in sexual activity on some of the private platforms. From where I stood, I could see two different tables where lines of white powder waited to be inhaled. A syringe disposal was on the wall next to every trash can, marked with a bright biohazard symbol. People were being beaten with whips and riding crops. People were bound up with elaborate arrangements of ropes, as well as with more prosaic handcuffs. Piercings and tattoos were everywhere. Screams and cries occasionally found their way through the music, agony, ecstasy, joy, or rage all indistinguishable from one another.

The lights flashed constantly, changing and shifting, and every beat of the music created a dozen new frozen montages of sybaritic abandon.

The music, the light, the sweat, the smoke, the booze, the drugs-it all combined into a wet, desperate miasma that was full of needs that could never be sated.

That's why the place was called Zero, I realized. Zero limits. Zero inhibitions. Zero restraint. It was a place of perfect, focused abandon, of indulgence, and it was intriguing and hideous, nauseating and viscerally hungry.

Zero fulfillment.

I felt a shudder run through me. This was the world as created by the White Court. This is what they would make of it, if they were given the chance. Planet Zero.
--- End quote ---
Lust, yes.  Debauchery, yes.  But famine?  Not so much.  Though if you were thinking of a different passage, my apologies.



--- Quote ---By a narrow definition, if your not going to look at the thematics and how it's actually described. Why does Marcone do what he does? what does he WANT?
--- End quote ---
The thing is, I don't remember Marcone as ever having demonstrated an emotional lust for power.  He's like a mountain lion, quiet, stalking, calculating, and striking when necessary.  He shows emotion at other times, certainly, but he always maintains a professional attitude toward his business.  This is not the emotional driven aspect of lust; the thirst and hunger to take and devour and consume what is out of your reach.


--- Quote ---Ahem, you don't feel guilt if you don't genuinely care. See his criminal Empire. Guilt stems from empathy, from Caring. An i'd bet just about anything if we don't see Marcone with the sword of love in MM, we'll see it in our timeline.
--- End quote ---
Caring and love are completely different.  Also, a person doesn't need to care in the actual person in order to express guilt.  For example - pure hypothesis and speculation - if Marcone was orphaned as a child because his parents were gunned down by mobsters, and he rose to the position that he's in all in order to wrench control of Chicago's underground out from the last regime, his actions could be interpreted as guilt because despite his efforts to turn the criminal underground into a controlled, less violent place, he became exactly the monster that he despised.  Which would completely explain why he has one secret sin, something that he would give anything to undo.

Though I do like your theory of Marcone with Amoracchius.  I've noticed that in every single Denarian novel, Marcone is also a major player.  Marcone, also, seems to run in multiples of five.  I feel that before all is said and done, he might be either holding a coin or a sword.


--- Quote ---Not really what i'm saying at all...

And I think you just don't see what I see in the same pic bro. And yes I've already brainstormed into the fact multiple facets of the 7 sins are actually different versions of the negative aspects of the 3 primary maleficent powers. The facts and supposition came before the theory Watson, and i'm deeply insulted here. I know theory better then to make such an elementary mistake boy.
--- End quote ---
So explain it!   :D  Help me understand.  I know I must not be seeing the big picture the way you are.  If you're explaining non-sexual, non-emotional actions as "lusty" and I reply that the interpretation of the word loses its meaning, reply back and tell me why your meaning makes more sense.  You mention that your understanding of this is grounded a lot more in the older historical imbalances as described in Buddhism and Taoism.  That would be a perfect way to counter me and help me understand.

This is clearly a large, fleshed out running theory that you have for the origins and theme of vampires, also dealing with the eventual direction of the series.  I love theories.  If I just don't get it and am debating something that you've said, don't get offended; counter me!  Show me where I'm wrong. :)  If I'm missing the point, it should be easy.


--- Quote ---*My original points were towards the fact Woj states outright he had 7 courts in his original idea but he he'd only fleshed out 3-4 really well, And towards a reasoning behind this fact.
--- End quote ---
I like this.  I haven't encountered this particular WOJ myself (or I did a long time ago and forgot about it) but a "seven deadly sins" theme does make sense when broadly creating the vampires, especially because the initial concept of the Whites certainly was tied to lust.  It's only when Harry starts diving into the intricacies between the houses that he encounters those who feed on fear or despair, which might have been a further development after the initial concept was created.

Makes me wonder what the Jade Court would be tied to.  Hard to tell from the very little WOJ that we get.  There's no sin for being a recluse.  Possibly pride, considering how Jim's referred to their dismissal of the nation of "China" as possibly some sort of trend that might not pan out.

Shift8:
Really great posts by everyone. So much stuff I cant even respond to it all. I will try to hit on a few things though.

First I must state that I do not think the Reds have sufficient free will, or good nature, to justify their existence. I had no moral issues at all with Dresden wiping out every single last one of of them.

And I want to point out that is what my question is really about. Not specifically Itza, but in general what moral approach ought to taken with Vampires.

It would seem that most everyone here agrees that the black vampires are essentially trash that needs taken out. Behavior and WOJ appear to back that up.

Whites, as evinced by Thomas, can choose not to feed. However difficult, their affliction can be overcome even if that means death. White Vampires who feed to excess or in excessive manners (such as rape or killing) can therefore be described as evil, and by that I mean individuals whose moral actions are detestable. However, I would challenge the notion white Vampires steal years of lives from people. It is my impression from the books that the life force of the individual fed on regenerates back to normal so long as they are not killed.

Reds are the most interesting as I see it. They possess some capacity for concern for another individual, but it never appears to be manifested outside of a selfish sort. IE: Suzan and her child or Ortegas wife wanting revenge. Essentially they seem only capable of caring about those who have some kind of special relationship to them, or serve their purposes. ALL Red vampires however manifest a evil nature as a matter of course. All of them kill. All of them are "vampires" by nature. Aside from this being the case without any exceptions in the book as my evidence for this, the nature of the transformation indicates this as well. One of the key elements of a half Vamp Red is that they can still choose not to feed. After they feed, they "become" a Red Vampire. This would seem to imply that their moral capacity afterwords is limited and altered. Additionally their true natures I think are somewhat implied by what is under the flesh mask.

To reiterate my original question however, how exactly is this type of creature possible from a logical standpoint? If a creature has sentience and/or sapience, how could it not also have free will? If its "responses" to life are limited, then its sentience must be as well. If it is not capable of understanding the moral nature of its actions, then what do we call it? Is it evil? Or is it simply an abomination?

Essentially, how can something NOT have free will if it is sentient? And if it is not fully sentient, how then should we think about it? If a creature cannot choose good sufficiently to justify its existence, then what exactly is it?

On one hand the Red Vampires lack of moral capacity means I can take them out like I might squash a fly or shoot a dog. But their dog-like lack of value would seemingly make their sentience near impossible. They seem to simultaneously express themselves with human like personas but inhuman moral capacity.

jonas:

--- Quote from: DonBugen on September 23, 2017, 11:08:03 PM ---Honestly, I really do apologize if my response stepped over the line at all.  I was speaking of "seven deadly sins" in the context in which they were created in the Catholic church, as cardinal sins (vs. venial sins) which is something only held as religiously important within the Catholic faith.  If you're speaking of it in the popular, historical, or secular sense, then my apologies.  And also, I apologize if I came off as just blandly dismissing a theory you've been working on for a while.
--- End quote ---
It's alright, I ight be being too defensive, side effect of reading into everything too much lol.

--- Quote ---I know the passage you're talking about, but I don't think Dresden refers to famine at all.  It's in chapter seven of Turn Coat.Lust, yes.  Debauchery, yes.  But famine?  Not so much.  Though if you were thinking of a different passage, my apologies.
--- End quote ---
No that's the one... I'd have to look back into famine as a horseman to put together my perspective really, though maybe if I can utilize a different theology for your pleasure
--- Quote ---Desire. The Second Noble Truth teaches that the cause of suffering is craving or thirst (tanha). This doesn't mean cravings should be repressed or denied. Instead, in Buddhist practice, we acknowledge our passions and learn to see they are empty, so they no longer control us. This is true for hate, greed and other emotions. Sexual desire is no different.
"For all its ecstatic nature, for all its power, sex is just another human drive. If we avoid it just because it is more difficult to integrate than anger or fear, then we are simply saying that when the chips are down we cannot follow our own practice. This is dishonest and unhealthy."
--- End quote ---
Not the quote I was looking for, it was more specific towards the fact no matter how much you actually have sex it's never a desire that's satisfied vs love. emboldened the first bit though cause it's implications toward that empty nature vs the satisfied nature of love and it's attached contentment. the second bit because right their they put it in with the 3 negative powers of the universe(which is from Asiatic religion originally) with the slight differentiation of fear/terror and fear/wrath. which, in the DF the overlap is fear becomes anger(heh, star wars fan).

--- Quote ---The thing is, I don't remember Marcone as ever having demonstrated an emotional lust for power.  He's like a mountain lion, quiet, stalking, calculating, and striking when necessary.  He shows emotion at other times, certainly, but he always maintains a professional attitude toward his business.  This is not the emotional driven aspect of lust; the thirst and hunger to take and devour and consume what is out of your reach.
--- End quote ---
Can you not say Mab lusts for power despite her logic? Marcone kinda stopped using his outward emotions but the base stimulus drives are the same. young Marcone vs Now is like Summer vs Winter, even uses the word summer in his description.

--- Quote ---Caring and love are completely different.  Also, a person doesn't need to care in the actual person in order to express guilt.  For example - pure hypothesis and speculation - if Marcone was orphaned as a child because his parents were gunned down by mobsters, and he rose to the position that he's in all in order to wrench control of Chicago's underground out from the last regime, his actions could be interpreted as guilt because despite his efforts to turn the criminal underground into a controlled, less violent place, he became exactly the monster that he despised.  Which would completely explain why he has one secret sin, something that he would give anything to undo.
--- End quote ---
Dude, if your going to compare him to batman, remember batman gave up everything multiple times for his city, did horrendous things to those whom he perceived as well deserved, and even died for Gotham in some timelines. The guy had loved his city, and now matter how twisted he became it was always that original spark that drove him in who he was... far as i'm concerned you proved that point better than I would have lol.


--- Quote ---Though I do like your theory of Marcone with Amoracchius.  I've noticed that in every single Denarian novel, Marcone is also a major player.  Marcone, also, seems to run in multiples of five.  I feel that before all is said and done, he might be either holding a coin or a sword.
So explain it!   :D  Help me understand.  I know I must not be seeing the big picture the way you are.  If you're explaining non-sexual, non-emotional actions as "lusty" and I reply that the interpretation of the word loses its meaning, reply back and tell me why your meaning makes more sense.  You mention that your understanding of this is grounded a lot more in the older historical imbalances as described in Buddhism and Taoism.  That would be a perfect way to counter me and help me understand.
--- End quote ---
One might say I tried to do as John Henry thought in Terminator, if I have the same data can I come to the same conclusions. Buddhism has this awesome myth about an ice giantess locked down on an island that fits MW's bill, the Yin-Yang to Pakua theory describes inside/existence vs outside/nonexistence and what the outsiders want and why, and why the same 'people' keep happening.

--- Quote ---This is clearly a large, fleshed out running theory that you have for the origins and theme of vampires, also dealing with the eventual direction of the series.  I love theories.  If I just don't get it and am debating something that you've said, don't get offended; counter me!  Show me where I'm wrong. :)  If I'm missing the point, it should be easy.
--- End quote ---
I just get frustrated with negativity sometimes. Communication isn't my first language lol. It's a big Nebulous conspiracy theory that does lead toward were the series is going, But I keep that part close to the chest.

--- Quote ---I like this.  I haven't encountered this particular WOJ myself (or I did a long time ago and forgot about it) but a "seven deadly sins" theme does make sense when broadly creating the vampires, especially because the initial concept of the Whites certainly was tied to lust.  It's only when Harry starts diving into the intricacies between the houses that he encounters those who feed on fear or despair, which might have been a further development after the initial concept was created.

Makes me wonder what the Jade Court would be tied to.  Hard to tell from the very little WOJ that we get.  There's no sin for being a recluse.  Possibly pride, considering how Jim's referred to their dismissal of the nation of "China" as possibly some sort of trend that might not pan out.

--- End quote ---
lol, I pegged them as pride too fyi. I think it's in a vid saved in the woj section... where though... if any are linked directly in the compilation vampires reply i'd start there. The questions should be all in same vid, but i'm not positive on that. That was the premise I based this part around when I started into vampires though. iirc i'd already been looking into them after the loop struck me as a Wrath possibility.

DonBugen:
Hey, Shift8!  Good point on the “taking off years of a person’s life” thing; I didn’t think, but I’m sure a person would be able to recover in much the way that Harry recovers after using Soulfire a lot – time, soul-fulfilling activities, life.  Otherwise, there’d be no way that Justine could have recovered the way she did.

Your question really is a good philosophical one – the moral approach that is to be taken with vampires, and whether extermination of them is something which can be considered.  I find this discussion works best if I think less of this being a moral issue, and more of it being an issue between finding neutrality between two different sapient races.  The moral road being that it is immoral to wipe out a species that is both sentient (self aware) and sapient (capable of reason and logical thinking) unless there is no other option.

(To your question about how something can be lacking free will but be sentient, I think that Jim addresses that in Cold Case.  I spoilered’ it because not everyone might have read it.)
(click to show/hide)We know from Cold Days that the Winter Lady does not have free will and choice; she must act within her nature.  Cold Case, told from Molly’s perspective as the Winter Lady, shows Molly thinking, reasoning, and planning.  She chooses, for example, to dress frumpy and warmly in the beginning, even though she doesn’t need to, in order to slightly defy Mab.  But we see throughout the story that whenever she tries doing something that does not fit within the Winter Lady’s jurisdiction, that her body overrides her will and reacts in a different way.  She doesn’t initially mean to be super mysterious and flirt constantly with Ramirez, but that’s exactly what happens when she tries to be straightforward and plain in speech with him.
The question is, can a peace treaty be really, honestly, lastingly held between two separate species of being, when one species is the only food that the other species can eat?  And can it be held in such a way that the one species is not abusing the other?

Total war to eradicate the species would only be justified if such a peace could not be kept.  If this was, say, Humans vs. Klingons, then it would be immoral to completely wipe out the Klingon race simply because of their extreme violence; they have a different society and structure, but it should be possible to coexist.  They’ve coexisted for millions of years separate; no reason why they can’t continue.
 to live.

But the Vampire cannot separate himself from mankind; he must be a predator to survive, and he only has one food:  us.  Furthermore, they MUST kill.  Reds and Whites start their life WITH a fatal feeding; black court MUST kill a mortal to create a new blampire.  It’s sort of difficult to maintain a peace with a race if “Oh yeah, we have to kill one of you guys every time we reproduce” happens.  And as we clearly see in First Lord’s Fury, an existence without reproduction is nothing but a slow death.

So, is it morally superior to say that the Whites can stay, but the Reds should go?  I don’t know.  Other than Thomas, we really haven’t seen any “good” white court vampires.  They’ve been just as vicious, bloodthirsty, and dangerous as the Reds, but in a subtler way.  I personally don’t think that the serial rapist is morally better than the serial killer.

If Jim Butcher wrote the Dresden Files with a sympathetic red court vampire – say, Thomas stayed a minor character and never grew from where he was portrayed in Grave Peril – and Susan was turned but fought against her nature – would we still say that the Reds are monsters and need to be put down?  Because in the Dresden Files, the white court is portrayed as the villain just as much as the red court is.

Honestly, if we’re just looking at the numbers, they ALL should go.  There’s no capable way of having a lasting peace treaty between them all; the only thing that’s worked so far is keeping ‘the cattle’ ignorant of their presence while wizards look the other way.  Every single White and Red Court vampire is a murderer, and will murder again.  I agree with Eb – no matter how nice they seem now, their hunger takes control again.  And they can’t live separate from humanity.  There is no way for this species to coexist with humanity, and if given the opportunity, they will grow and spread and dominate and completely force the world to submit.

--

Jonas – I understand some of what you were saying now – if I understand, you were drawing parallels to the sins of lust, gluttony, sloth, pride, wrath, greed, and envy with the four horsemen – famine, pestilence, war, and death, and drawing further parallels between lust, famine, and others to the Buddhist interpretation of desire.  That does make a lot of sense, and is pretty deep.  Some time you’ve totally got to lay down your full theory.

Especially about that bit about the inside/existence versus outside/nonexistence.  That would be really interesting, especially because I’m dying to find out what actually is outside, and what drives the Outsiders.

Though I will argue against the view of Marcone.  Comparing him to Mab doesn’t work, because Mab doesn’t lust for power.  She wants balance.  She has her power, she uses it; she doesn’t seek more.  Which, I think, is why Mab never interfered with Harry taking the artifacts at the end of Skin Game, and never even told him to take them.

I actually didn’t compare Marcone to Batman.  At all.  Though that might be my mistake; I haven’t watched a Batman flick since… well, I’ve never watched a Batman movie, and only remember watching the Saturday morning cartoons as a kid.  With that being said, you cannot say the things you said about Batman and apply them to Marcone.  Batman (I presume) doesn’t run a prostitution ring, or have a team of hired assassins or manage the drug activity in his town; he doesn’t demand protection money from corporations or take a cut from any organized robbery or theft.  He doesn’t hold blackmail against or bribe local government and law enforcement in order to break laws.

In short, Marcone doesn’t love Chicago, any more than a pimp loves his hooker.  He protects the city because it’s his, but he drives it like a beast of burden in order to make a profit.  Saying that Marcone is like Batman is saying that Professor Moriarty is like Sherlock Holmes.  There are similarities, yes, but the core of their beings are completely opposite.

Navigation

[0] Message Index

[#] Next page

[*] Previous page