The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers

Vampires and Evil, a philosophical rabbit hole.

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Shift8:
Probably like many on this board, I read/watch alot of fantasy outside of the Dresden files. Among alot of this Fantasy are alot of different kinds of Vampires.

For a long time I never game much thought to the ramifications of the natures of various types of vampires that are in different kinds of fantasy. I could readily accept the context of any type of story. Here are a few examples of the various kinds of Vampires that most typically exist in stories.

Humans with extreme desire and need to feed, but can choose otherwise: Thomas is an example of this. He is possessed or set upon by a need to feed for survival, but he can technically avoid doing so either by coming up with alternate means to feed or by simply choosing to die rather than murder someone.

Beast type vampire: Essentially a supernatural animal that feeds specifically on humans. A undesirable creature to be sure, but no more evil than a rabid dog.

Moral Monster type. Human level intellect, self-aware. But despite being self-aware is only capable of Evil: Red and certainly Black vampires are this third type. Alot of Winter Fae probably fall into this category despite not being vampires. Perhaps some summer Fae as well. Lord of the Ring style Orcs are certainly this. These creatures are essentially all "evil people." But critical to their nature, they are not redeemable. Nor are their any in their ranks that would be considered good. Essentially, kill on sight. They do not warrant any of the normal moral considerations of free will creatures. The world is better off without them.


The thing I cant work out is exactly how the last type would or could exist.  Each one of the last type combined both the intellect and moral knowledge of the first, but the complete lack regard for other sentient creatures as the beast type. They are not just really smart beast types. They are evil incarnate. Personal Evil. They aren't wolves. Other characters in a given series dont just view them as forces of nature, but in the same manner you would view a serial killer. Hate. Moral Hate. Not hate like you hate a wolf or a hurricane, but hate like you might hate Adolf Hitler or Himmler.  The question is, how should these creatures be viewed? Negatively certainly. But are they moral evil or are they just extremely smart and undesirable in the context of their behavior? Essentially, they have free will as it pertains to "being bad."

What I cant figure out is if the last type is even logically possible.

jonas:
Cause they are the equivalent of a fallen human soul. they are an inversion of what they were before, they exist on the same negative energy that being not provides necromancy. In all the courts the inner demon seeks to manifest here in this world, with the blacks it's paring off all the extraneous details and switching them directly.
Take a direct look at a fallen angel vs a regular one, that's the same extreme wanna look at the logic of, same answer for damn near the same reason.

Snark Knight:
I'm not at all sure the Black Court do have a choice.

groinkick:

--- Quote from: Snark Knight on September 22, 2017, 12:37:38 AM ---I'm not at all sure the Black Court do have a choice.

--- End quote ---

Don't know 100% but I thought Jim said something like this.  There is something that sets them apart from the other courts.  Like they are more far gone or something.

jonas:

--- Quote ---Are all red courts and black court vampires evil?
This is a pretty huge question and depends a lot on how you view the world.
Red Court vampires, by definition, to become a vampire, have to murder someone else to become what they are. They have to end another person's life to satisfy a desire that does not /need/ to be satisfied in order for them to continue living. Every single one of them makes a choice to sate that desire rather than allow another human being to live--the Fellowship of St. Giles proves that.
(Of course, there are shades of grey involved--a half-vampire who was kept starving and without water in a basement for three days before they were thrown a mortal has a much more difficult time making a clear-headed choice than a half-vampire who was restrained yet cared for by a group of religiously fanatic monks at a Fellowship stronghold, but there's still a choice being made.)
That could, by some people, be considered a working definition of evil. Sometimes unfortunate, sometimes understandable as to how someone could make that choice, but evil nonetheless.
Black Court Vamps are a different story. They're actually tainted by something hideous and unworldly. They are driven to kill to survive. They don't really have a lot of choice about it. They enjoy being what they are, and doing what they do. They can be sad that they don't have someone who loves them, or upset that the world has passed them by and has changed on them, but at the end of the day, they're basically black-hearts who occasionally pull out a few of the tattered remains of their humanity, fail to fit back into them like they used to, and get maudlin about their glory days when they could watch the sun rise.
--- End quote ---
Even the new found lack of choice reminds me of a fallen. Just one big switch that can't be unflipped.

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