The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers

Vampires and Evil, a philosophical rabbit hole.

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Snark Knight:

--- Quote from: DonBugen on September 23, 2017, 02:24:50 AM ---I would find it extremely hard to believe that the Winter Fae is the only baddie type that Jim Butcher ever created that has more than one side to it and isn't a whole-black hat.  In fact, I would put money on the assumption that no enemy in the Dresden Files could be ultimately viewed as fully evil, once all is actually known about them.

--- End quote ---

I can't see the Black Court having a hidden importance like the Unseelie do. Reason being, reality apparently got along fine without them until Dracula botched his ascension ritual and turned himself into a monster to found that Court, presumably ca 1400's when the historical Vlad Tepes was around.

DonBugen:
That is a fair point, but I don't think that you could for-sure stand on that as a defense.  True, the world managed without them for how long, and they're vastly reduced in number since.  But we know so very little about them that it's hard to state that their complete extermination wouldn't somehow cause negative repercussions somewhere else.

I mean, hell, I'm hesitant to even label the creatures in Demonreach as "needing complete oblivion".  For all we know, the prison there also functions as a battery to something even far greater that's doing something important. 

However, your post reminded me that there is a class of being that is an active threat to reality as we know it and the Oblivion War is essentially trying to exterminate.  I've added one more class to my proposed hierarchy.

forumghost:

--- Quote from: Snark Knight on September 23, 2017, 02:11:53 AM ---Whampire = lust only works for the Raiths. Though two of the White Court noble houses do seem to feed on two of the three cardinal virtues. The Raiths feed on lust and are harmed by love (Amoracchius?) and the Skavis feed on despair (presumably weak against hope, embodied by Esperacchius). I wonder if a case might also be made that faith is the opposite of fear, thereby putting Malvora in opposition to faith / Fidelacchius?

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IIRC Jim has said it's:

Raith's= Feed on Lust, vulnerable to Love
Scav= Feed on Dispair, vulnerable to Hope
Mal= Feed on Fear, vulnerable to Courage

I more interested to know what the hypothetical 'sparkly' Wamp that feeds on the warm fuzzy feeling of hugging a puppy would be vulnerable to myself...

jonas:

--- Quote from: Snark Knight on September 23, 2017, 02:11:53 AM ---re: Jonas

I believe it's reds who have the backwards knees. At one point in a fight Harry bashes something in the knee and comments that it wouldn't have worked on a Rampire because their actual knees are backwards (though I'm not sure how the actual mechanics of passing for human work ... possibly they can flex either way?), and it would have just pissed off a Blampire.

As for the vampire courts corresponding to the seven deadly sins, I'm not sure I buy that one. Whampire = lust only works for the Raiths. Though two of the White Court noble houses do seem to feed on two of the three cardinal virtues. The Raiths feed on lust and are harmed by love (Amoracchius?) and the Skavis feed on despair (presumably weak against hope, embodied by Esperacchius). I wonder if a case might also be made that faith is the opposite of fear, thereby putting Malvora in opposition to faith / Fidelacchius?

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Your only looking at the simple translation of lust, for charnel desire. If we look at it through how you brought up,(because yes the three also do match up thematically) then take say, Marcone. Marcones crime is lust his foible is love,he might limit it to innocent children but that it the prime opposing factor. But he doesn't lust for sex, iirc he can even Resist Laura a bit like Harry. He lusts for Power, with a capital P. He wants the power, the choices it brings.
Going back to Club zero though, Lust is seen in parallel to say, famine. It's the inability to slake a desire. As all three houses have birthed a literal unslakable desire within, they're Lust. They not only Lust, but Lust after something only attainable from another and at their expense, toeing the proverbial free will line just enough under the new rules. quote that scene if I can soon.

DonBugen:

--- Quote ---then take say, Marcone. Marcones crime is lust his foible is love,he might limit it to innocent children but that it the prime opposing factor. But he doesn't lust for sex, iirc he can even Resist Laura a bit like Harry. He lusts for Power, with a capital P. He wants the power, the choices it brings.
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That is a way, way loose translation of lust, and I don't think it applies in this situation.  By boiling it down to "a desire that cannot be filled" then essentially everyone in The Dresden Files is a creature of lust.  This is the human condition.  Otherwise then, Molly lusts for freedom and independence, Butters lusts for respect in his job, Karrin lusts to play the hero and help people, Harry lusts for quiet alone time on his couch with a good paperback.  Sure, Marcone wants power and influence, and gets them.  Doesn't make him a creature of lust.  And it doesn't make the White Court's acts of emotional draining more "lusty" than, say, the Red court, whose feeding practices were VERY sexualized. 

Besides, the foil of Marcone is certainly not love.  As far as we can see, love has nothing to do with the reason why he protects children.  The evidence portrayed in Death Masks and Small Favor lean more in favor of immense guilt and shame, rather than any sort of feeling of love on his behalf.  I doubt he even knew Helen's child before he put her in a coma.

I think that you're loosening the translation in order to fit your theory, and in doing so you're losing the significance of the sin of lust.  After all, defining it as a desire that cannot be quenched is pretty much identical to gluttony, which would also be pretty identical to greed.  Besides, if we're matching up sins to courts, it seems like Wrath would fit the black court better in any case.

I think that your attempt to define the vampire courts as being similar to the seven deadly sins is far too Catholic to really fit the pan-theological world of the Dresden Files.  Jim's stated that we see a lot of Christianity simply because TDF takes place in the USA and Europe mostly, where Christianity has its greatest foothold, but that the same powers would be very different in other regions.  Trying to make the Jade Court, for example, fit into the Seven Deadly Sins would mean taking a group which resides in China and doesn't leave the Yangtze River Valley area, and subjecting them to a paradigm that at most has a small number of persecuted followers in their area.  Beings in the Dresden Files look very different from different perspectives.

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