The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Denarian Dresden
Mira:
--- Quote ---2. Jim’s stated in one of his talks on writing that the key to making a really good villain is to remember that in his mind, he’s the hero of his own story. This is something that people often forget: most people, regardless of how upright or twisted they are, generally live their lives doing what they feel is right in their own eyes. Few people wake up and just think, “You know what? I’m going to be a complete monster today.”
--- End quote ---
This fits Nic to a tee... Harry on the other hand, not so much, even when he wins the day he rarely thinks of himself as a hero. That doesn't mean that he doesn't have a good opinion of himself, at least as far as his will is concerned. He also has a strong sense of right and wrong though he can be wrong and sometimes his vision is muddled..
KurtinStGeorge:
--- Quote from: DonBugen on September 12, 2017, 01:31:32 PM ---Anubissama, I hear you, I really do. But there’s a few things that I want to mention.
1. Fighting the outsiders and wanting them out of our reality isn’t really a morally upright or morally evil thing; it’s just simply survival. Per Word of Jim (and I don’t have the exact reference) this is a battle in which both God and Satan would be on the same side. Pretty much, if you live in the Dresdenverse, and you know about the Outsiders, and you’re not so delusional as to think that you can control *them*, you’re against them.
2. Jim’s stated in one of his talks on writing that the key to making a really good villain is to remember that in his mind, he’s the hero of his own story. This is something that people often forget: most people, regardless of how upright or twisted they are, generally live their lives doing what they feel is right in their own eyes. Few people wake up and just think, “You know what? I’m going to be a complete monster today.”
To the Fallen, I’m pretty sure it did seem like some sort of act of liberation against a brutal tyrant. And that the Knights and those who serve TWG are nothing more than a vicious military police focused on bringing them to knee in submission. That does not mean that this position is correct, but it means that they've justified their actions and motives. An emotional abuser may lie and manipulate and stalk not because they hate the person, but because they love the person and can't live without them. A freedom fighter may strike a blow against the heart of the Empire that's choking out their way of life, 100% certain that they're doing the right thing, and we remember them as terrorists who hijacked a plane full of innocent civilians to kill thousands more. Feeling that you're in the right does not make you objectively good. Which brings me to my third and final point
3. The end rarely justifies the means. One of the prevailing themes of the Dresden Files is that there’s always a way out; always a choice to be made in which one can still save the day without turning into a monster. If you’ve gone down the left-hand path to the point in which you’re slaughtering innocents without a second thought, it’s long past time to consider that possibly you’re not the hero that you thought that you were. That’s so central to Harry’s struggle against his internal darkness, and therefore central to the Dresden Files itself, that I honestly feel that if you disagree with that you’re probably reading the wrong book.
Good intentions are nice and all, but it’s what a person does that really indicates who they are. You can fairly judge the type of men that the Knights are from the work that they do. And, I believe, you can fairly judge Mab and Nicodemus based off of that as well.
Long story short: If Nicodemus’ solution to stopping the Outsiders from destroying the world is to turn it into a nightmarish hellscape full of death, ruin, and destruction, then I’m not sure that he really saved the world from destruction at all.
--- End quote ---
I pretty much agree with everything you have to say here. I especially want to affirm part # 2 about people thinking they are the hero of their own story. At the risk of invoking Hitler in an online discussion, when I read Mein Kampf several years ago I remember being surprised when I found Hitler saying he believed he was "doing God's will." I looked it up and this is one translation of the exact quote, "I believe today that my conduct is in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator." OK, Hitler was an incredible liar; the best chapter in Mein Kampf, or perhaps I should say the most rational chapter, is Hitler's analysis of political propaganda and how to use it. So that quote about the "Almighty Creator" may be total BS, but imagine if he actually believed it. I think that is a really scary thought. So with that thought in mind I can see Nicodemus believing that he is acting for the greater good, in whatever twisted way he defines what is "good."
TheCuriousFan:
--- Quote from: Anubissama on September 08, 2017, 06:56:31 PM ---Honestly, the whole argument that Mab is the lesser evil doesn't really make sense to me. Let's compare the two:
Winter Knight
- you only get power, some supernatural strength, and painkiller. All tied to your position of Knight
- you have a constant 24/7 temptation of the instinct that the Mantle awakes in you
- there is literally only one person in the history of mankind that managed to get out of this position alive
Knight of the Blackened Denari
- you get a power boost via Hellfire (and maybe in Dresdens case at this point he could have both Hell and Soulfire) which is directly tied to your position and a Coin holder, you are functional immortal, and you get superb healing no faking via painkillers, but most importantly you get knowledge and magical experience beyond the reach of ANY creature on the planet. This is where the real power boost of the Denari lie, and if you ever leave you get to keep that knowledge.
- the only temptation is intellectual, yes Lash might converse with your subconscious but at the end of the day, those conversations are also based on logic and reason. There is a whole world of difference between being tempted on an instinctual emotional level, and being tempted on a logical Socratic level. IMHO it is much easier to withstand the later than a constant nagging from your urges.
- there is literally a world spanning organisation dedicated to helping you get rid of the coin (and as mentioned if you leave you keep most of the power boost anyway) so your odds of getting out alive are astronomically higher
If you are looking for the best power boost, with the highest chance of retaining yourself, and best odds of surviving and leaving it behind, Denari win out against Mab.
--- End quote ---
You're forgetting the healing and durability boosts along with the option of more if you start actually drawing on the mantle.
huangjimmy108:
--- Quote from: Arjan on September 09, 2017, 02:52:01 PM ---The morality of the white god is not a clear thing in the Dresden verse but if he promotes free will and offers us the choice between good and evil he is both.
But the knights of the cross are not the white god, they are his PR department. They make him look good.
The fallen are designed as their counterparts. They are as close to absolute evil as Michael is to absolute good. It defines their purpose. They are there to give you that other choice.
Both Uriel and the fallen are after your soul. Maybe one should consider other options. Call Odin if drinking and fighting are your thing,
--- End quote ---
I like this one: "Call Odin if drinking and fighting are your thing"
Free will is a real force in this reality and surely TWG does not represent everything that is good. Despite that though, TWG is definitely one of the good guys. Not the only good guys, and maybe not the ultimate good guys, but definitely good guys.
Anyone standing on their direct opposite, like the forces of hell, and therefore Nicodemous as their mortal representative, is a good suspect for the title of "Capital E" evil.
When Dierdra and Nick tells me that they are trying to "save the world", even if they truly does not lie outright, I can be almost sure their understanding of "saving the world" is not something acceptable.
The quote from Simon R. Green is probably applicable here: "Hell always lie, unless the truth can hurt you more."
jonas:
--- Quote from: TheCuriousFan on September 14, 2017, 01:27:06 AM ---You're forgetting the healing and durability boosts along with the option of more if you start actually drawing on the mantle.
--- End quote ---
Where does te mantle do those things for arry? I've not seen the Mantle actually heal anything nor indication that it makes him more durable than usual, least any more so than a guy on pcp.
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