The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
White Court, Venatori and Kemmler
Quantus:
--- Quote from: jonas on August 24, 2017, 06:47:50 PM --- Why is that important? Because before stoker the thing that was Drakul, that birthed the BCV's was never connected to being a vampire or producing vampire heirs. So the very belief that we were dealing with a new vampire caught hold itself in Stoker's book's. again, he defined them. With my premise being Lara did so intentionally. If you wanna discuss that or refute it, cool.
*that might help with your 'inertia' Quantus. Stoker was the originator of said momentum.
--- End quote ---
This is simply incorrect in the Dresden Files. Drakul and Dracula are two completely different people. Drakul doesnt have any connection to vampires at all (that we know of), rather his son Dracula specifically and intentionally Created the Black Court in the course of vague family Drama and daddy issues. The Black Court existed prior to the publication of Bram Stoker, and said publication ididnt actually Change the Black Court, it simply advertised them. It had the side benefit of making everyone believe that Black Court where THE vampire race, so the others could point to it and say "See, I can eat garlic so Clearly Im not a Vampire." But again, this is a matter of publication of their weaknesses, not spontaneous generation of new weaknesses.
kazimmoinuddin:
I think it was said that Dracula created the BCV to impress his father Drakul. This made me wonder if this might have been an attempt to fully access his inhuman nature he had inherited, or aid his father in being released from his human form.
If there is such a link, I wonder what would happen if an altered dark hollow ritual was done using the BCV as the fuel.
jonas:
--- Quote from: Quantus on August 24, 2017, 07:37:04 PM ---This is simply incorrect in the Dresden Files. Drakul and Dracula are two completely different people. Drakul doesnt have any connection to vampires at all (that we know of), rather his son Dracula specifically and intentionally Created the Black Court in the course of vague family Drama and daddy issues.
--- End quote ---
replace drakul with Dracula then, the father son issue always confuses me, it has nothing to do with the df, just the damn thing itself always confuzzles me.
--- Quote --- The Black Court existed prior to the publication of Bram Stoker, and said publication ididnt actually Change the Black Court, it simply advertised them.
--- End quote ---
That's what's up for debate here actually, your inferring that from what you believe from your perspective but that don't mean it's true. Point of fact Ramps have all the same weaknesses as Blamps to a lesser degree(except maybe garlic, I can't confirm that offhand) and people already knew about them so advertising known vampire weaknesses doesn't help directly. Pointing out another being is a vampire could help define them as such though. since they are greater effected by faith, I tie that into being angelic in nature, the belief applied to them that they are vampires actually causes vampire weaknesses to effect them more, such as it does.
--- Quote --- It had the side benefit of making everyone believe that Black Court where THE vampire race, so the others could point to it and say "See, I can eat garlic so Clearly Im not a Vampire." But again, this is a matter of publication of their weaknesses, not spontaneous generation of new weaknesses.
--- End quote ---
Spontaneous generation of a whole new race born from angelic power is precisely what happened when Dracula did the deed. It was an entirely new creation without tags from other things connecting it to reality. A virtual unknown that stayed that way. You can't say what you think and have it automatically refute a theory... that's not how theory works. It's why they're so damnably frustrating sometime. I avoid raging against things like he-who-walks-beside though..
Again, this isn't refuting anything I've supplied through inference. Just trying to point out the difference. Probably gonna have to pull out the history books, look through Ms Ducks work and shore up my defenses... my hill shall not be allowed to easily stand ;D
Quantus:
--- Quote from: jonas on August 24, 2017, 10:08:37 PM ---replace drakul with Dracula then, the father son issue always confuses me, it has nothing to do with the df, just the damn thing itself always confuzzles me.
--- End quote ---
Issues keeping the two straight, or are you saying you dont understand why Dracula would have parental issues?
--- Quote ---That's what's up for debate here actually, your inferring that from what you believe from your perspective but that don't mean it's true. Point of fact Ramps have all the same weaknesses as Blamps to a lesser degree(except maybe garlic, I can't confirm that offhand) and people already knew about them so advertising known vampire weaknesses doesn't help directly.
Pointing out another being is a vampire could help define them as such though. since they are greater effected by faith, I tie that into being angelic in nature, the belief applied to them that they are vampires actually causes vampire weaknesses to effect them more, such as it does.
--- End quote ---
Ramps ware weak to Sunlight and Faith. Blampires are weak to those, and also Garlic, theoretically Necromancy, and if we take the Stoker book as a valid source, running water and the mirror bit and a host of others. Which is enough differential to leverage in the 19th century. But I suspect White Court would not have minded if there was Collateral Red Court Damage, regardless.
--- Quote ---Spontaneous generation of a whole new race born from angelic power is precisely what happened when Dracula did the deed. It was an entirely new creation without tags from other things connecting it to reality. A virtual unknown that stayed that way.
--- End quote ---
1)I really think it is a HUGE leap to say that because something has a weakness to Faith Energy it has to be rooted in Angelic Power. Angels do not have a monopoly on Faith energy. 2)What Dracula did in "creating himself as the first Black Court Vampire" is a wildly different thing than publishing a book and spontaneously creating a new monstrous Race out of pure belief, and has to be a wildly different thing than instantly (or near enough by ageless corpse standards) Imposing wholly new weakness on a pre-existing race. Otherwise, there would be Jedi running around (and Butters doesnt count) and more people falling through wardrobes.
In the same way that it basically has to be way more difficult to RE-Name something as compared to Naming something for the first Time. We can agree on that much of the function of things at least, Agreed?
--- Quote ---You can't say what you think and have it automatically refute a theory... that's not how theory works. It's why they're so damnably frustrating sometime. I avoid raging against things like he-who-walks-beside though..
Again, this isn't refuting anything I've supplied through inference. Just trying to point out the difference. Probably gonna have to pull out the history books, look through Ms Ducks work and shore up my defenses... my hill shall not be allowed to easily stand ;D
--- End quote ---
Ive been trying to refute your theory point by point as best I can, but you havent given me much to work with beyond your initial assertions. So far they've been based on factually incorrect things, as near as I can see. The black court had been around for at least 600 years (Mavra's age) so the book was not part of their genesis, at all. Historically, Vlad Drakul and his son Dracula where kicking around in the 1400's, and while that can always change in the DV I doubt it would become more recent. There's never been any mention of them gaining /New/ weaknesses at any point, and logic dictates that if it were possible, the Council and others would have used the technique a hell of a lot more. You seem to be basing a lot of your theories on a notion that DV reality is a whole lot more fluid and responsive to small-scale and/or transient beliefs than the evidence suggests, at least to me.
But please give me something that points to a Change in the Black Court after the publication of Bram's book, aside from the literally dying of the publicity, that would open a lot of interesting possibilities.
Snark Knight:
--- Quote from: Quantus on August 24, 2017, 07:37:04 PM ---This is simply incorrect in the Dresden Files. Drakul and Dracula are two completely different people. Drakul doesnt have any connection to vampires at all (that we know of), rather his son Dracula specifically and intentionally Created the Black Court in the course of vague family Drama and daddy issues.
--- End quote ---
I think the relevant WOJ leaned pretty strongly in the direction that Vlad Dracula didn't intend on exactly the result he got by founding the Black Court. It wasn't explicit, but I got the sense he'd halfway flubbed an ascension ritual and turned himself into a monster rather than a minor god.
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[#] Next page
[*] Previous page
Go to full version