The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
White Court, Venatori and Kemmler
Quantus:
--- Quote from: Rasins on August 23, 2017, 06:47:58 PM ---I kind of got the impression that Stoker had gotten the vast majority of his information straight from the Whites. And that there were a LOT of other supernatural nations that were getting very concerned about their rise in power. So there were several efforts to take them out.
Stoker just got the mortals involved.
--- End quote ---
That's my read as well. I havent seen any actual mention of other schemes, but he does confirm that Everyone resented the sudden power of the Blacks, and also that Lara/the WC was behind Bram (who Jim described as the Cut-Out man of the scheme).
--- Quote from: jimbutcher on June 21, 2011, 06:38:48 PM ---
--- Quote from: Lash Dresden on June 21, 2011, 06:27:53 PM ---See, so I was right. He didn't die of syphilis. Lara wouldn't have had it (her demon would have killed it, assuming she'd ever been exposed), and I doubt she'd have had fun times with Stoker if he already had it. So Lara ate him, and then spread the story that he died of syphilis. (OK, I admit it, my theory was that the black court killed him and spread the false story. But I still claim being right that in the DV Stoker did not die of syphilis. :D )
--- End quote ---
Die of syphilis? God, no, man. Stoker was the cutout. :)
The BC didn't /know/ about the WC's involvement until well after the fact, at which point it was entirely academic. The BC who are left survive because they are extremely pragmatic. They don't have enough trouble surviving /without/ picking a fight with the entire White Court, who will only send the peasants and pitchforks anyway? If one needs to vent one's spleen, one does it on hapless mortals, preferably those no one will miss.
The BC who wanted to get all ballsy about Just Vengeance died in the fifties and sixties, culminating in the heyday of the Hammer films. :)
--- End quote ---
--- Quote from: jimbutcher on June 21, 2011, 06:19:09 PM ---
--- Quote from: Serack on June 13, 2011, 12:02:50 PM ---I think that was all within the text. I didn't record Jim saying it, but that doesn't necessarily mean he didn't.
The text definitely says that the Wampires somehow motivated Stoker to write his books though. And Jim does sorta confirm that Stoker was killed for being spot on.
--- End quote ---
Stoker was killed for being delicious.
Lara: Bram, Bram, Bram. You've done so well. Time for your reward.
Lara (later): ...
Lara (in her journal): It's so easy to get carried away when one works with the creative talent. So much enthusiasm.
--- End quote ---
--- Quote ---4. if the elders of the black court could have taken mab, then HOW ON EARTH did any mere force of humans manage to go up and stake them? i mean, they should've wiped out anything that was coming after them if they can take on MAB herself...just a thought
Power in the spirit world isn't the same thing as power in the material world. And a one-on-thirtyish fight (Mab vs the elders of the BC) is WAY different than a one-on-20,000 fight (a BC vampire against a modest mortal city). Especially when the 20,000 know what your weaknesses are, and how to kill you with them. Smiley And that's assuming that you don't have a saint, or an independent wizard, or a shaman, a Knight of the Cross or some other champion, or other spiritual allies on your side which was not uncommon. Hell, for that matter, you might well be aided by vampires from the other Courts. *Everyone* resented how powerful the Blacks had become.
--- End quote ---
Con:
Do you think given the theory that the Black Court were created in part from energy from The Outside, that the Archive had a direct hand in ordering Lara and the Ventores to get rid of them?
Zaphodess:
--- Quote from: jonas on August 23, 2017, 06:15:36 PM ---Stoker had informants or he himself? proof of that? cause it seems like you just pulled that one out of the air there, he was informed by lara. Whom we know is part of the oblivion war and understands both identity and how mortal belief effects it.
--- End quote ---
Raisins and Quantus have already provided the quotes, so yep, Stoker had informants. Lara Raith. We don't know exactly how she got the information, but it's not very hard to figure out imo. She probably collected it from various sources. And maybe Stoker himself was encouraged to figure some things out. How they put it all together isn't that important though, imo. The thing is that it was information about weaknesses of the Black Court that was already true. You were arguing that the publication of those weaknesses somehow was a catalyst for the methods to become effective because people believed in them. I only pointed out that this was an over-simplification of the way how belief works in the DV in my very humble opinion. People don't start believing in things because they read about them in a novel. Ok, some do, but that's not the normal case. I'm sure that very few readers of the Dresden Files rely on crying out "Forzare" at their opponents when they end up in a fight. ;)
Now, I don't argue that it isn't possible for some of those methods to be more effective if people really believed in them. Especially the faith magic. Simply because people would have more faith or stronger faith if they started to believe that it can help them against monsters. That makes the attack stronger, not the vulnerability to it of the monster. But would a belief in the effectiveness of garlic against BCV increase the effect? I don't think so. For some odd reason, BCV can be killed by throwing garlic at them. Maybe garlic is a substance that is especially life-affirming, so much so that the Necro-magic that holds together a BCV implodes upon contact. Why doesn't the same thing happen if you throw an apple at the creature if someone truly believed that it should be more effective because they don't like garlic and apples are more life-affirming? Because it doesn't work and the idiot gets killed relying on a substance that just doesn't have the same effect and his reasoning was faulty because it wasn't the vitamins or the taste but one of the oils that can be found in garlic has a very specific reaction to the BCV magic aura. Theoretically, some nuts that grow in Indonesia would work as well, but nobody has figured it out yet because it's still a mystery why it is garlic of all things out there that can kill the BC.
Con:
Garlic has traditionally been used as a ward in rural communities going back centuries as it was used to ward away predators.
Traditionally it was wolfsbane and hemlock that caused pain to Vampires and Werewolves, which is an actual poison. Over the years Garlic being a warded herb attached to supperstition got conflated with the use of poisons attached with superstition. Stoker's book actually lists garlic, wolfsbane and hemlock together as an amalgamation of herbs that can be used against vampires.
jonas:
--- Quote ---Raisins and Quantus have already provided the quotes, so yep, Stoker had informants. Lara Raith. We don't know exactly how she got the information, but it's not very hard to figure out imo.
--- End quote ---
I already said that in the little bit you quoted, then pointed out why that's significant and why your early assertation that Stoker had informants or researched himself was off track... you can't say it one way before and claim you meant something else now... that's not what you were referring to earlier
--- Quote ---Stoker himself or his informants had to collect the information before they put them together in a book of mass-destruction.
--- End quote ---
It's not linearly connected to the idea Stoker researched or 'had informants' vs what I already pointed out, Lara did it. Who is also a venator who knows all about how the oblivion war works. It's not a big leap when Mab had Disney make fairy land to cement the Sidhe back in that someone else can do the same. Someone else who knows the value of mortal information.
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