The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
White Court, Venatori and Kemmler
Zaphodess:
I just had a thought about Mavra in Dead Beat. What if she is a Venator too? The reason Lara is is that she wants to get rid of competition. Gods don't seem to have much use for Vampires ... they feed on and destroy too many sources of potential power. Reason enough that no new ones arise.
--- Quote from: jonas on August 23, 2017, 10:21:14 AM ---Stoker changed that not by publicizing their secret weakness's, but by causing belief about them to create said weakness's.
--- End quote ---
Sorry to be so blunt about it, but it seems to me that's a bit too simple. Belief is more than wishful thinking. Something in the universe has to back it up. Otherwise all those storks with their heads in the sand wouldn't lose out on the evolutionary lottery so badly.
jonas:
--- Quote from: Zaphodess on August 23, 2017, 10:34:38 AM ---I just had a thought about Mavra in Dead Beat. What if she is a Venator too? The reason Lara is is that she wants to get rid of competition. Gods don't seem to have much use for Vampires ... they feed on and destroy too many sources of potential power. Reason enough that no new ones arise.
Sorry to be so blunt about it, but it seems to me that's a bit too simple. Belief is more than wishful thinking. Something in the universe has to back it up. Otherwise all those storks with their heads in the sand wouldn't lose out on the evolutionary lottery so badly.
--- End quote ---
Define your problem better than blunt opinion that I might smite it down with the bluntness it rode ye in on :) or do you think people just randomly day dream about taking control of their lives, about being safe from monsters in the dark or that there's a 'cure all' to anything or do they actually hope and believe them? an idea's a powerful thing, the stokerocalpse was caused by a book, and it ended by and large through the same mob methodology used in said book. why? Because after being introduced to the idea they choose to believe it was possible. By and large otherwise it coulda happened the same way waaay before any book on how to. Still had Clerics, still had fire... Nothing changed but the belief in the possibilities ;)
fyi, the storks hide with fear, not with faith.
Zaphodess:
--- Quote from: jonas on August 23, 2017, 10:42:39 AM ---Define your problem better than blunt opinion that I might smite it down with the bluntness it rode ye in on :) or do you think people just randomly day dream about taking control of their lives, about being safe from monsters in the dark or that there's a 'cure all' to anything or do they actually hope and believe them? an idea's a powerful thing, the stokerocalpse was caused by a book, and it ended by and large through the same mob methodology used in said book. why? Because after being introduced to the idea they choose to believe it was possible. By and large otherwise it coulda happened the same way waaay before any book on how to. Still had Clerics, still had fire... Nothing changed but the belief in the possibilities ;)
fyi, the storks hide with fear, not with faith.
--- End quote ---
Of course the book gave people power and hope. Knowledge is power. And of course people believed in the methods described. They worked. You were arguing that the methods only worked because people believed in them, that they became effective via blind belief. That's not very logical imho. Someone had to try them for the first time and that person can't have been too confident about their chances of survival at the time. They were facing a Black Court Vampire. The first guy to try anything from Stoker's repertoire was probably very surprised they made it.
Stoker himself or his informants had to collect the information before they put them together in a book of mass-destruction. If your reversal of cause and effect would have worked, they could have just made up the weaknesses of the Black Court. If that method worked, you could kill anything that way.
jonas:
--- Quote from: Zaphodess on August 23, 2017, 11:01:28 AM ---Of course the book gave people power and hope. Knowledge is power. And of course people believed in the methods described. They worked. You were arguing that the methods only worked because people believed in them, that they became effective via blind belief.
--- End quote ---
And there your arguing that of course they believed in prescribed methods because they worked but we have no proof whatsoever that they went after BCV in such a way before Stoker. So your placing the chicken before the egg.
--- Quote --- That's not very logical imho. Someone had to try them for the first time and that person can't have been too confident about their chances of survival at the time. They were facing a Black Court Vampire. The first guy to try anything from Stoker's repertoire was probably very surprised they made it.
--- End quote ---
They were facing unknowable evils that hadn't yet been defined. Before Stoker mortals didn't know jack about it being BCV, hence why they got confabulated with the black death, a simple disease. Bob voices it directly and shows proof ppl just didn't 'believe' anything about them priori, They didn't even have a name for Reinfeilds. Why is that signifigant? Because not even wizards, the mostly likeliest to twig to BCV don't have any other word but that which stoker used. Stoker defined them in name just like he defined the BCV in identity.
--- Quote ---Stoker himself or his informants had to collect the information before they put them together in a book of mass-destruction. If your reversal of cause and effect would have worked, they could have just made up the weaknesses of the Black Court. If that method worked, you could kill anything that way.
--- End quote ---
Stoker had informants or he himself? proof of that? cause it seems like you just pulled that one out of the air there, he was informed by lara. Whom we know is part of the oblivion war and understands both identity and how mortal belief effects it.
Rasins:
I kind of got the impression that Stoker had gotten the vast majority of his information straight from the Whites. And that there were a LOT of other supernatural nations that were getting very concerned about their rise in power. So there were several efforts to take them out.
Stoker just got the mortals involved.
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