The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Small Favor: Why Mab got involved in the first place
Zaphodess:
--- Quote from: Quantus on August 22, 2017, 08:18:17 PM ---Only catch I see off-hand is the timeline of Harry's hiring: The Gruff's already began attacking Harry as the Winter Emissary /Before/ Marcone was Taken in the first place, and long before Mab would have chosen an emissary for that reason.
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That's actually been the reason I started considering Maeve, cause she could lie about Harry being Winter's Emissary and she might also have been able to disregard bargains and Fae restrictions.
Another possible angle: We might be making assumptions about Summer's motives. Sure, Titania wanted Harry dead because he killed her daughter. What if it wasn't her only motive? She could have had information about Nicodemus' plans that Mab didn't have. Mab was ready to kill Ivy rather than let the Archive fall into the hands of the Denarians (and indirectly to Nemesis). Titania might have been ready to let Marcone rot and kill Harry in order to prevent that as well. Revenge was just the cherry on top. Fighting a move by Nemesis might be enough to let a Faerie Queen get around the restriction about killing mortals.
Quantus:
--- Quote from: Zaphodess on August 23, 2017, 01:12:16 PM ---That's actually been the reason I started considering Maeve, cause she could lie about Harry being Winter's Emissary and she might also have been able to disregard bargains and Fae restrictions.
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So if Im following you, you're no longer saying that Mab hired Harry to flush out Maeve's plan, but rather that Maeve Lied to Summer to sick them on Harry's trail, long before Mab got involved? That seems like the sort of thing Mab should have noticed, when it became apparent that Summer was targeting him for no apparent reason but coincidentally only hours before she herself decided to hire him.
Im not giving up on it yet, but this seems to be unraveling a bit.
--- Quote ---Another possible angle: We might be making assumptions about Summer's motives. Sure, Titania wanted Harry dead because he killed her daughter. What if it wasn't her only motive? She could have had information about Nicodemus' plans that Mab didn't have. Mab was ready to kill Ivy rather than let the Archive fall into the hands of the Denarians (and indirectly to Nemesis). Titania might have been ready to let Marcone rot and kill Harry in order to prevent that as well. Revenge was just the cherry on top. Fighting a move by Nemesis might be enough to let a Faerie Queen get around the restriction about killing mortals.
--- End quote ---
So if Im following you, now you are suggesting that Mab was responsible for the attack at the train station rather than Maeve?
Zaphodess:
--- Quote from: Quantus on August 23, 2017, 01:54:01 PM ---So if Im following you, you're no longer saying that Mab hired Harry to flush out Maeve's plan, but rather that Maeve Lied to Summer to sick them on Harry's trail, long before Mab got involved? That seems like the sort of thing Mab should have noticed, when it became apparent that Summer was targeting him for no apparent reason but coincidentally only hours before she herself decided to hire him.
Im not giving up on it yet, but this seems to be unraveling a bit.
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I was starting from the bad guys problem: The goal was to get the Archive, not (just) Marcone. The chosen method was to make it an Accords matter. Harry was the most likely to get the Archive as mediator. Problem was: Harry wouldn't have done anything if it was just Marcone on the line. They needed to motivate Harry to become involved.
Mab would have been motivated to become involved if
a) Maeve was involved (nothing good could come from it)
b) Thorned Namshiel was involved
c) it was somehow clearly a Nemesis-driven plot
d) she cared enough about her Accords to protect the new guy
e) she had an interest in Marcone because of Vadderung in one way or another
f) she had an interest in Marcone himself - maybe a bargain with him
...
b) is unlikely imo, because she had no idea who abducted Marcone. d) isn't strong enough in that instance, cause the Accords don't protect you from conflict, they just set down the rules for how it's got to be played. If Marcone can't protect himself or make sure he has allies - his problem. e) and or f) are quite possible, but we don't have enough facts to prove it. My WAG tried to address the possibility of a) because it is also an instance of c) as Maeve was Nemfected and her mother knew it, tried to persuade her to let herself be cured, Maeve didn't seem to like the idea... I thought it was logical that Mab wouldn't let her run around completely free, unsupervised and not under observation during that time.
Mab didn't know the details of what the Enemy really wanted to achieve. So she was likely to call in a favor from Harry in order to get some more information. But: Harry had the right to refuse if he didn't like it, and he could be expected to refuse to save Marcone. Getting Summer involved achieved that he was motivated to accept the offer. This would have served Mab's interests as well as the Enemy group (including Maeve if she was on board). So it's a coin toss as to who managed to do it in what manner. But I think Mab is the least likely, she can't tell a direct lie and she'd probably have preferred another way to motivate Harry. Summer trying to kill him did not improve the chances of him being successful.
Technically, Summer shouldn't have been able to attack Harry before he was officially Winter's Emissary. He had the right to refuse, so not even Mab's intention to recruit him as such was good enough. But I think the Queens can make mistakes if they truly believe something. The initial attacks might have been possible if Titania believed him to be the Emissary already (a lie fed by Maeve to one of Titania's spies maybe or something Nic orchestrated). Titania either had very bad information or very good information (knowing and reacting to a great danger to reality) or the initial attacks wouldn't have been possible.
--- Quote from: Quantus on August 23, 2017, 01:54:01 PM ---So if Im following you, now you are suggesting that Mab was responsible for the attack at the train station rather than Maeve?
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That's actually a fact iirc. She admitted to it in the hospital chapel.
Quantus:
--- Quote from: Zaphodess on August 23, 2017, 02:40:28 PM ---I was starting from the bad guys problem: The goal was to get the Archive, not (just) Marcone. The chosen method was to make it an Accords matter. Harry was the most likely to get the Archive as mediator. Problem was: Harry wouldn't have done anything if it was just Marcone on the line. They needed to motivate Harry to become involved.
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Um, that's exactly what he Did, he called the Archive as a mediator over Marcone. He might not have gotten involved if the (obvious) enemy hadnt been the Denarians (whom he hates on a personal level), but
[/quote]
Mab didn't know the details of what the Enemy really wanted to achieve. So she was likely to call in a favor from Harry in order to get some more information. But: Harry had the right to refuse if he didn't like it, and he could be expected to refuse to save Marcone. Getting Summer involved achieved that he was motivated to accept the offer. This would have served Mab's interests as well as the Enemy group (including Maeve if she was on board). So it's a coin toss as to who managed to do it in what manner. But I think Mab is the least likely, she can't tell a direct lie and she'd probably have preferred another way to motivate Harry. Summer trying to kill him did not improve the chances of him being successful.
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So you theory at this point is that MAB gave Summer a heads up that she was going to recruit Harry, in order for Harry to feel pressured enough to accept the Job. How and Why would she do so before anyone else had made any moves to do anything? What is her motivation to kick the ant-hill in the first place? I thought you were initially suggesting that it was Maeve?
--- Quote ---Technically, Summer shouldn't have been able to attack Harry before he was officially Winter's Emissary.
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Not true. SmF stated that they were able to track his Fire Magic (specifically the Fire) becuase he'd melded it with Lily's Fire Spell in PG during that whole Wellspring attack thing. It was why Mad took away his Rod and memory of Fire Magic. His status as Emmisary had nothing to do with their ability to track him, only their ability and/or motivation to actually go after him.
--- Quote ---He had the right to refuse, so not even Mab's intention to recruit him as such was good enough. But I think the Queens can make mistakes if they truly believe something. The initial attacks might have been possible if Titania believed him to be the Emissary already (a lie fed by Maeve to one of Titania's spies maybe or something Nic orchestrated). Titania either had very bad information or very good information (knowing and reacting to a great danger to reality) or the initial attacks wouldn't have been possible.
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That still doesnt the fact that the first event in this whole escapaede was Titania's. Your original theory had that reversed.
--- Quote ---That's actually a fact iirc. She admitted to it in the hospital chapel.
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She never admits it, or even anything Id call an implied admission; though Harry does jump to the that conclusion and asked her why she did it.
Regardless, you JUST said you thought Maeve was actually behind the Hobs. Which is it, and Why?
wardenferry419:
--- Quote from: Quantus on August 23, 2017, 12:10:41 PM ---I think that would only but him at more risk, right? Being tapped as a Winter Emmisary is what let all the Summer hitters start coming after him in SK, no? It makes the whole thing more official but not in a helpful way that I see.
I think the catch on that one is that she stated outright when she "hired" Harry in SmF that she did not know "who took Marcone". If she already knew it was Marcone she wouldnt have been able to state it so plainly, Id think.
Personally, I think Mab's motivation toward Marcone in SmF has nothing to do with Harry at all (in the "he's not really the center of the universe" theme) and has more to do with Marcone being Vadderung's pet project in much the same way Harry is Mab's.
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It is not helpful for Harry, but that was not a major concern to her. She loves to test his limits. And the added pressure of being both a target and an emissary could have pushed Harry to accept her WK offer. A more pressing concern would be to be seen as following the letter of her accord.
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