The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Bob's Personality, and Justin
jonas:
--- Quote from: Rasins on August 18, 2017, 05:57:06 PM ---I'm struggling with your assertion that the table is anything other than a conduit for power.
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Can you specify the problem? I base my assumption mostly from
--- Quote from: Jim ---
--- Quote from: ballplayer72 ---
i am fairly certain, but not positive, that it is not possible to hold both Mantles at once. Also i do not think that holding both was what Slade was planning. Slade and the Summer Lady were planning on taking the Summer Knight out of the equation, and thus causing a war. During this war, the Summer Lady would be able to take Lily, the follower of Summer that she put the Mantle on, along with the Unraveling, and sacrifice her for Winter on the Stone Table, thus giving Winter the Energy that went along with the Knight's Mantle, not the Mantle itself. At least that was how i interpreted it. The Stone Table doesnt transfer the actual thing that is Sacrificed on the Table from Summer to Winter and vice versa, but the energy and power that it holds.
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Finger. Nose.
Jim :)
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--- Quote ---What makes you think that the WK's mantle was tainted in any way?
Also, we know the life-force of Slate was given to Winter, but the WK mantle was not. It was already Winter's so there is no reason for it to have gone through the table. It DID just go back to Mab and she bestowed it on Harry.
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Then why bother pulling out the special knife(one from the description is later pulled from Hades vault, 3 fae queens in vault as ward/sirens shows evidence of collaboration to some extent) and make him use the table? She didn't want the thing itself back, who'd been working with Nfected Aurora. Just The power to remake it again. She was worried about contamination from reabsorbing it... Makes me wonder at a comparison to lash. She gives out a piece of her power to a mutable mortal... is the mantle impressionable from the bearer? Is this How Kringle got a W mantle of his own identity? Can they take on a changed portion of their own power, thus changing themselves by proxy? Mmm ??? anyway...
--- Quote ---I'm not seeing any evidence that the WK mantle went through the table to Mab to Harry, nor that the table is anything other than a conduit.
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Combine the above seeming agreeing woj with what is actually said about the table by Lea and blood spilt upon the table. And doesn't it make it obvious it went through the table via blood? You yourself said we lacked any other manifestation of the power involved there. It's specifically how Aurora thought to transfer the power of the Knights mantle in Sk. Mab transferred the power of the mantle back to winter without accepting potentially damaged goods.
It IS a conduit, for power itself. A way to separate power from spirit of memory. It would likely be why Mab needed to cement her fae more in reality even though the things they actually inherited their powers from are well known, if now considered mythologically historical, religions.
Rasins:
--- Quote from: jonas on August 18, 2017, 07:41:14 PM ---Then why bother pulling out the special knife(one from the description is later pulled from Hades vault, 3 fae queens in vault as ward/sirens shows evidence of collaboration to some extent) and make him use the table?
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It was not the same knife. We've pretty much identified that the one pulled from the vault was the spear-tip of the Spear of Longinus from the crucifixion. Along with the other relics on the same stand.
--- Quote ---She didn't want the thing itself back, who'd been working with Nfected Aurora. Just The power to remake it again. She was worried about contamination from reabsorbing it... Makes me wonder at a comparison to lash.
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That's just it, based on the quote that Jim Nose/finger'd, the mantle itself didn't go into or though the table, just the power that the mantle had. And we already know that the power of the Mantle is already part of the power of winter/Mab. So there is no need for cleansing.
There is no evidence that Slade was nemfected. Sadistic and cruel sure, but not nemfected.
--- Quote ---Combine the above seeming agreeing woj with what is actually said about the table by Lea and blood spilt upon the table. And doesn't it make it obvious it went through the table via blood? You yourself said we lacked any other manifestation of the power involved there. It's specifically how Aurora thought to transfer the power of the Knights mantle in Sk.
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In SK we saw a transfer of a Mantle, the Summer Knight's mantel, and we didn't see any manifestation like we did of the ladies in CD.
We didn't see a manifestation of the transfer of the WK mantle to Harry either.
The blood, and Live of Slade, WAS the power used and transferred. It was transferred through Mab to Harry to heal his body, thus not depleting any of Winter's power, not that that was all that much anyway.
--- Quote ---Mab transferred the power of the mantle back to winter without accepting potentially damaged goods.
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Again, no evidence that the Mantle went through the table. I'll admit that it's possible that the POWER went through the table, but not the mantle itself. Read the quote that Jim agrees with.
--- Quote ---It IS a conduit, for power itself. A way to separate power from spirit of memory. It would likely be why Mab needed to cement her fae more in reality even though the things they actually inherited their powers from are well known, if now considered mythologically historical, religions.
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Huh? A way to separate from a spirit of memory? Are you saying that Nemfection is some kind of alternate version of Bob?
jonas:
--- Quote from: Rasins on August 22, 2017, 05:04:38 PM ---It was not the same knife. We've pretty much identified that the one pulled from the vault was the spear-tip of the Spear of Longinus from the crucifixion. Along with the other relics on the same stand.
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With the same bronze blade and leaf shaped Handle... ya can't prove it's not the same one. and fyi, all those relics are also accepted to have probably existed in a different form before being used in the Crucifixion. You can say you don't think it's the same one, but by description there is more for than against.
--- Quote ---That's just it, based on the quote that Jim Nose/finger'd, the mantle itself didn't go into or though the table, just the power that the mantle had. And we already know that the power of the Mantle is already part of the power of winter/Mab. So there is no need for cleansing.
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And it's currently in the WK, it's of her but not currently a part of her. If the mantle had gone through the table When Aurora tried it, it would have ceased to exist. What happens to a mantle(if indeed it still exists) when all it's power gets transferred across the table to something or else? it becomes an empty useless cup anyway. So moot either way.
Why yes, there's no need to use the stone table when you already possess the mantle's power in your court, UNLESS what..?
--- Quote ---There is no evidence that Slade was nemfected. Sadistic and cruel sure, but not nemfected.
In SK we saw a transfer of a Mantle, the Summer Knight's mantel, and we didn't see any manifestation like we did of the ladies in CD.
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We saw any such thing? we on screen saw any such thing?
--- Quote ---We didn't see a manifestation of the transfer of the WK mantle to Harry either.
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they did it directly not through the air, either in the act of sex or when she froze his spine back in place. Either way it's straw manning here and above, What does it matter? How does it address an issue? it don't cause we don't know jack about the table except the point I already made, it works with blood, an old primal conduit for power, not through 'manifestation'. Your taking how the mantles were on DR, which isn't the Knights mantle btw, never seen that change in real time, and saying that it applies here when i'm specifically saying here is different. there^ the conduit was blood, and I'm using YOUR OWN ASSERTION that the mantle didn't manifest otherwise to prove it was transferred through said blood as was originally meant by Aurora. The table transfers the power, not the thing itself, the power from spirit/memory, so it rips the power from the memory, ending the you are what you eat effect. Again, that's why Mab's power can come from greek Goddess's but she need's to cement her courts in human memory compared to greek legends, The memory connection was killed but the power itself was transferred...
--- Quote ---The blood, and Live of Slade, WAS the power used and transferred. It was transferred through Mab to Harry to heal his body, thus not depleting any of Winter's power, not that that was all that much anyway.
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That's inference without premise, again... Based on what? Your perceptions only yes?
Again, no evidence that the Mantle went through the table. I'll admit that it's possible that the POWER went through the table, but not the mantle itself. Read the quote that Jim agrees with.[/quote]Then what becomes the purpose of sacrifice on the stone table, what 'dies'?
--- Quote ---Huh? A way to separate from a spirit of memory? Are you saying that Nemfection is some kind of alternate version of Bob?
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Gah, I could explain it all and quote the woj how certain things like Lea are actually elemental parts of the mind and how N is tied up into the collective subconscious and shadow and how everybody has that 'mirror' in themselves and then add in the comparison to MM Harry and Harry's Subconscious and the fae queens being 'mirrors' of themselves to disallow N room to operate in reality on them, as their mirror exists here(citing first day creatures slipping into 'masks', can't slip into the 'mirror' already in existence) ect, ect. but I won't... I rather feel your trying to misunderstand some of this now... :'(
Good Day Sir.
Mira:
--- Quote ---And it's currently in the WK, it's of her but not currently a part of her. If the mantle had gone through the table When Aurora tried it, it would have ceased to exist. What happens to a mantle(if indeed it still exists) when all it's power gets transferred across the table to something or else? it becomes an empty useless cup anyway. So moot either way.
Why yes, there's no need to use the stone table when you already possess the mantle's power in your court, UNLESS what..?
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The Mothers said that the mantles pass to the nearest suitable vessel. The Table isn't needed, when Slade murdered the Summer Knight the mantle was transferred, the Table wasn't needed.. If Lily or Titania needed the Table for Fix to acquire the Summer knight's mantle is was off page... I don't think blood is needed either for it, what is confusing in my opinion is the execution of Slade.. He had to die to give up the mantle, also it all could have been a bit of a perverted show that Mab wanted to put on.. For the simple reason, why would the transfer of the Knight's mantle be so much more elaborate and complicated the the transfer of the Lady's mantle?
Quantus:
Based on all the Knight Mantle stuff we saw in SK, I tend to land in the camp that basically all of that scene in CD was Mab asserting dominance over Harry and not any sort of ritual requirement. It certainly applies to the PPV Sexcapades they broadcast, which was dominance over Harry and an Announcement that She'd finally claimed him. I think it equally applied to murdering Slade, as that was a turning-point Choice for Harry, when he Murdered a helpless mortal for no other reason than he wanted Power (Harsh, but his own description) and I think she wanted to proove he'd Kill on Orders. That being said, Mab doesnt do one thing if she can get two for the same effort, and Slade's treatment does somewhat resemble Lea's. I guess wouldn't be surprised to find out that she'd also been treating him for Nemfection, even as a precautionary measure due to his scheming proximity to Aurora.
New Question: Would Slade have needed to be Nemfected to Betray the Winter Court and/or the Natural Order to the Summer Lady as he did? Harry is bound by Winter Law, but it seems to me it's not as forcefully as a queen/lady.
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