The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Bob's Personality, and Justin
Quantus:
--- Quote from: jonas on August 17, 2017, 08:30:00 PM ---Where she was discovering it actually, near the end she lies for first time, you can tell cause the ability surprises her. Also Woj about spending to long with humans and we did it..(i'll look, I know it's pretty old, should be just off the main list still)I'm going to call back your previous statement for a more thorough look, get back to above later..
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I literally have no idea what you are talking about here...?
--- Quote ---We previously asserted we had seen no mortals Nfected but here your saying it was the mortal Host Not the mantle/deity itself... :( this is part of why sometimes I feel ppl just look to prove wrong without actually thinking about what their saying... it's either the host, or the mantle/thing itself that's infected, how can it be both?
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Yes, the Host is what is Nemfected and not the Mantle, but there is a vast difference between a Host and a Mortal. Maeve had not be a "Mortal" in that sense since she made her Changeling Choice way back when. That is entirely discinct from being the vessel of a Mantle.
We read your posts, but you are taking lots of very distinct things and conflating them into one, sometimes in your own logic but not even in the post; makes it difficult to tease out your real meaning.
jonas:
--- Quote from: Quantus on August 17, 2017, 08:39:18 PM ---I literally have no idea what you are talking about here...?
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old woj, looking but I'm mentally exhausted for now. Or do you mean the lying? if you read the scene like a... whats good word? c.i.a. analyst lol? you'll notice she actually hesitates right before she lies to Harry, as she's not yet sure she can, she was still off balance from dealing with Nfection at first. too distracted to be lying. I assume like with Lily, it was an outlined choice/bargain but she was still reeling from what it did to her on the inside.
--- Quote ---Yes, the Host is what is Nemfected and not the Mantle, but there is a vast difference between a Host and a Mortal. Maeve had not be a "Mortal" in that sense since she made her Changeling Choice way back when. That is entirely discinct from being the vessel of a Mantle.
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Now when someone else makes an assumption I feel like i'd get my theory torn into for making, how should I respond? ??? Lily apparently Made her choice automatically and Molly isn't actually a changling. Can you define this distinction in anything that corresponds to what we know? Cause that's basically a theory without the premise it came from. Nothing shows it's different, and you haven't yet gave me any inference why it's valid.
Your making the same logical leaps I do without, but I know i'm doing them(usually) and ignoring what we all know we don't know for sure of in Molly's situation. Cause lets say she did lose her soul, she can't choose to change and leave and neither can she become more in tune with the Ladies Mantle. Choice gone, change is gone, stuck half in half out. Ignores MS talking about remaining who you are despite winter's cold too.
--- Quote ---We read your posts, but you are taking lots of very distinct things and conflating them into one, sometimes in your own logic but not even in the post; makes it difficult to tease out your real meaning.
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Sorry bout that... but if it helps the logic not being put into the post is stuff I take for granted already having argued it here at least once or otherwise witnessed it put forth. Would be good to have a huge thread put together of the disparate parts of all my idea's so I can argue them better and keep the evidence organized but that just didn't work out for me unlike others <.< >.> All for piggybacking on others good idea's though, it's where civilization comes from :)
They are all one. If I could show you that... I could show you how I could place such bet's without being at all uncertain i'm right. Things beta readers wish they understood.
*And you know... to compare it to the mathematician savant, sometimes an answer is readily apparent and accurate by intuition that then has to be taken back to the drawing board to explain it to others. I could [l]talk[/l]type all day and your only seeing a percentage of my 'drawing board'. Or my other favorite metaphor for communication, slightly altered, Two artist are drawing the same backwoods house. They take separate trails and see two separate sides never meeting or seeing the same view but taking their work back to town and comparing artwork. Even though they can look at this picture neither can ever see what the other guy actually saw. And so they argue and bicker over who drew the true representation while neither one is actually willing to just walk around and leave their perspective to see just what the other guy saw. and what they had seen was incomplete in and of itself, because it was beyond fathomable to just go up and walk inside the house and see what it really was. Or to use a better know metaphor, the guy with the snake wouldn't let go what he 'saw' to go check out the wall the other guy had or vice versa :p (can't remember the 3rd part of the elephant offhand)
Quantus:
--- Quote from: jonas on August 17, 2017, 08:55:45 PM ---old woj, looking but I'm mentally exhausted for now. Or do you mean the lying? if you read the scene like a... whats good word? c.i.a. analyst lol? you'll notice she actually hesitates right before she lies to Harry, as she's not yet sure she can, she was still off balance from dealing with Nfection at first. too distracted to be lying.
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No, the WOJ isnt the issue, this is just the first time Ive heard the theory that the scene in PG was her first time lying. That's interesting, not a read Id heard of before, but not impossible I guess. The only issue I have with that is the timeline, we know that Maeve was Nemfected by Lea, and by PG Lea had been locked up for at least a year (sometime between SK and DB).
--- Quote from: jonas on August 17, 2017, 08:55:45 PM --- I assume like with Lily, it was an outlined choice/bargain but she was still reeling from what it did to her on the inside.
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Can you elaborate on that, Im not sure what you are referring to. Choice (conscious or unconscious) I coudl see, but what "bargain"?
--- Quote ---Now when someone else makes an assumption I feel like i'd get my theory torn into for making, how should I respond? ???
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I try to point underlying assumptions out where-ever I can. My own, others, whatever. We cant talk Apples to Apples if we all keep saying Round Fruit :)
--- Quote --- Lily apparently Made her choice automatically and Molly isn't actually a changling. Can you define this distinction in anything that corresponds to what we know? Cause that's basically a theory without the premise it came from.
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The short answer is No, I cannot explain Molly to any satisfying degree, and I dont think anyone has yet. The best we can come up with is that Molly and the other Carpenter kids have Fae blood but are not first-generation Changelings. There's WOJ that it works that way, but the more generations removed, the more you need exposure to Fae/magic/etc as an environmental stimulus to wake it up; Molly's time in Arctis Tor and especially her tutalage under Lea would do it. And it would explain the
As far as Lily goes, by her own words she was not immediately forced to make her Choice when she got the Mantle at the end of SK, but I think that by actually accepting the Duties of the Lady that choice would move to unconscious territory pretty quickly.
--- Quote ---Nothing shows it's different, and you haven't yet gave me any inference why it's valid.
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How are they not? All Changelings Choose to be Mortal or Not Mortal (ie Fae); "Mortal" is over there on that side of the terminology tree. "Mantles" are this whole other thing (we've seen them manifest in a Hawk form and Serpent Form, both sidhe examples), All need Hosts but some of which latch onto Mortals (like the Knight Mantles) while others take a non-mortal Host (Eldest Fae, etc) and elevate them to true "Immortal" status (as opposed too "Ageless" things that can still be killed freely). The Venn Diagrams overlap, but they are defined by different things.
--- Quote ---Your making the same logical leaps I do without, but I know i'm doing them(usually) and ignoring what we all know we don't know for sure of in Molly's situation. Cause lets say she did lose her soul, she can't choose to change and leave and neither can she become more in tune with the Ladies Mantle. Choice gone, change is gone, stuck half in half out. Ignores MS talking about remaining who you are despite winter's cold too.
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Ive kind of lost track of where you were going with this logial push, so forgive me if I miss the mark here.
Per WOJ, Molly will inevitably loose her Soul, but it was not a light-switch thing; it's going to be gradual (and vary based on unspecified factors); so on that side there shouldnt be any getting stuck half-way on the logic that there will be a transition period.
Separately though, I dont think it would have been an issue regardless. Not having a Soul doesnt make you immune to Change (the closest thing to that is the Angels that are too "Absolute" to be Nemfected) rather the soul is what lets you initiate Self-Change; Molly is being Changed by an external Force (the Mantle), which is entirely possible for souless creatures with no Free Will (per the old WOJ you were referencing earlier).
--- Quote ---Sorry bout that... but if it helps the logic not being put into the post is stuff I take for granted already having argued it here at least once or otherwise witnessed it put forth. Would be good to have a huge thread put together of the disparate parts of all my idea's so I can argue them better and keep the evidence organized but that just didn't work out for me unlike others <.< >.> All for piggybacking on others good idea's though, it's where civilization comes from :)
They are all one. If I could show you that... I could show you how I could place such bet's without being at all uncertain i'm right. Things beta readers wish they understood.
*And you know... to compare it to the mathematician savant, sometimes an answer is readily apparent and accurate by intuition that then has to be taken back to the drawing board to explain it to others. I could [l]talk[/l]type all day and your only seeing a percentage of my 'drawing board'. Or my other favorite metaphor for communication, slightly altered, Two artist are drawing the same backwoods house. They take separate trails and see two separate sides never meeting or seeing the same view but taking their work back to town and comparing artwork. Even though they can look at this picture neither can ever see what the other guy actually saw. And so they argue and bicker over who drew the true representation while neither one is actually willing to just walk around and leave their perspective to see just what the other guy saw. and what they had seen was incomplete in and of itself, because it was beyond fathomable to just go up and walk inside the house and see what it really was. Or to use a better know metaphor, the guy with the snake wouldn't let go what he 'saw' to go check out the wall the other guy had or vice versa :p (can't remember the 3rd part of the elephant offhand)
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I feel your pain :) I keep trying to find the time to sit down and type up all my various thoughts into a Grand Unifying Theory like Serack's, but alas no dice yet.
The main reason I keep in these conversations, even the dead horse topics, is that the more I talk about it the more and more of my own assumptions I twig on, and so can include explicitly them in future theories. It sometimes just baffles me when people look at the same evidence I have and start talking about (what seem to be (wildly unrelated things). But that's usually my first clue that Im thinking Apples, they're thinking Oranges, and we're both actually just saying "The Fruit, man. The Fruit!!"
jonas:
--- Quote from: Quantus on August 18, 2017, 01:53:41 PM ---No, the WOJ isnt the issue, this is just the first time Ive heard the theory that the scene in PG was her first time lying. That's interesting, not a read Id heard of before, but not impossible I guess. The only issue I have with that is the timeline, we know that Maeve was Nemfected by Lea, and by PG Lea had been locked up for at least a year (sometime between SK and DB).
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Not sure your issue, that she'd been infected awhile or..? I figure it took awhile to come to full fruitation.
--- Quote --- Can you elaborate on that, Im not sure what you are referring to. Choice (conscious or unconscious) I coudl see, but what "bargain"?
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Oops, I meant Aurora. She talks about how what she was doing wasn't her idea but 'the price that was set'.
--- Quote ---I try to point underlying assumptions out where-ever I can. My own, others, whatever. We cant talk Apples to Apples if we all keep saying Round Fruit :)
The short answer is No, I cannot explain Molly to any satisfying degree, and I dont think anyone has yet. The best we can come up with is that Molly and the other Carpenter kids have Fae blood but are not first-generation Changelings. There's WOJ that it works that way, but the more generations removed, the more you need exposure to Fae/magic/etc as an environmental stimulus to wake it up; Molly's time in Arctis Tor and especially her tutalage under Lea would do it. And it would explain the
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Way I figure it, wizards are actually closer to 'half born' but they never usually chose to be anything other than human, where as at some point a mutual ancestor choose to become fae. I see Merlin and his sister Morgana connect to meso and Egyptian mythos as the originators as scions capable of magic.(merlin=Egyptian Horus is an easy connection... Horus being the embodiment of the Moon and GK domain IS the moon, well I see possibilities) One chose mortality(as is sorta mirrored in Odins choices) and the other became something more. I think the recent woj about changlings and if they ever twig to the fact they HAVE a choice includes wizards, especially some of the older ones. This could be a big problem with why warlocks can't be redeemed beyond a certain point, they choose to stop being human, like the 'god' who gets executed in PG.
--- Quote ---As far as Lily goes, by her own words she was not immediately forced to make her Choice when she got the Mantle at the end of SK, but I think that by actually accepting the Duties of the Lady that choice would move to unconscious territory pretty quickly.
How are they not? All Changelings Choose to be Mortal or Not Mortal (ie Fae); "Mortal" is over there on that side of the terminology tree. "Mantles" are this whole other thing (we've seen them manifest in a Hawk form and Serpent Form, both sidhe examples), All need Hosts but some of which latch onto Mortals (like the Knight Mantles) while others take a non-mortal Host (Eldest Fae, etc) and elevate them to true "Immortal" status (as opposed too "Ageless" things that can still be killed freely). The Venn Diagrams overlap, but they are defined by different things.
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I still can't see why that makes the host Nfected. One of the reasons I say it is the mantle btw, is because of Lily(that's the correct one this time lol). Even at her most sadistic Aurora was pretty in control til the end. Though she'd actually let her overall emotional perspective slip askewed. Lily... less so, and I think it's cause the mantle went to a changling who became fae but lacks something Molly might also possess, starborn resistance. After acclimating to the mantle for 10 years she's nothing like the conserved Aurora we first meet still putting on proper SL show. Her reflex use of a blanket blast of fire vs the assertion summer must be controlled in how it chooses to use its power stands in stark contrast. She's losing her mind to the mantle, which is emotionally unstable. Could be why mab was wrong on who deserved which mantle, the balance between the two is off.
--- Quote ---Ive kind of lost track of where you were going with this logial push, so forgive me if I miss the mark here.
Per WOJ, Molly will inevitably loose her Soul, but it was not a light-switch thing; it's going to be gradual (and vary based on unspecified factors); so on that side there shouldnt be any getting stuck half-way on the logic that there will be a transition period.
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The actual sentence itself is contradicted as he utters it though.... I was pointing out you haven't explained the differences between host, mortal and mantle and why the host is infected. point of fact only things in the immortal land we know have been infected have mantles, so how can we say it's the host as an immortal?
Hey btw, this is exactly the same thing i'm pointing out happens to red's until they are bloodslaves. So if she can use a cell phone being immortal but not have faded her soul then I see no reason why a red can't still be clinging but unable to soul gaze :)
--- Quote ---Separately though, I dont think it would have been an issue regardless. Not having a Soul doesnt make you immune to Change (the closest thing to that is the Angels that are too "Absolute" to be Nemfected) rather the soul is what lets you initiate Self-Change; Molly is being Changed by an external Force (the Mantle), which is entirely possible for souless creatures with no Free Will (per the old WOJ you were referencing earlier).
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But only from mortal magic or soul. How can a spirit mantle change an immortal host? No soul to initiate change by your claim.. unless it's slowly subsuming Hers' which is exactly what I think it does. Mortal magic possessing the same spark of change that souls have can be best proven if I cite Wizards being able to be crazy enough to simply open a way for an outsider. It's capable of giving something 'life' in reality.
*hey maybe that means everytime she uses magic it feeds the mantle instead, at which point it becomes exactly like an insulation against using certain magics yourself :) and acceptably explains why her aura changes. It's leaching it dry of mortal essence. Feeding the same way a fallen does(YES, everything's the same lol).
--- Quote ---I feel your pain :) I keep trying to find the time to sit down and type up all my various thoughts into a Grand Unifying Theory like Serack's, but alas no dice yet.
The main reason I keep in these conversations, even the dead horse topics, is that the more I talk about it the more and more of my own assumptions I twig on, and so can include explicitly them in future theories. It sometimes just baffles me when people look at the same evidence I have and start talking about (what seem to be (wildly unrelated things). But that's usually my first clue that Im thinking Apples, they're thinking Oranges, and we're both actually just saying "The Fruit, man. The Fruit!!"
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Yep, arguing my case is the best way to flesh out my own thinking on something. I consistently make better fluid arguments for something than sit down and organize something decent, or even legible. Knowing what the problem in communication of an idea is helps to better address said issue.
Rasins:
--- Quote from: jonas on August 17, 2017, 08:33:05 PM ---And if the Sk when through it then all of the SK's power would have went to winter yes? She essentially unmade and remade the mantle for Harry as opposed to bestowing the mantle to him by it going directly back to her. By killing him on the table it effectively killed the mantle while giving her back it's power, as opposed to taking in a potentially tainted WK mantle.
Since you asked, the table kills the associated consciousness and 'spirit' while preserving the power itself... It's a way around the you are what you eat Guide. That unfortunately has the potential to leave a lot of 'dead' conscious minds not yet forgotten by humanity into Oblivion, yet trying to find their way back in.
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I'm struggling with your assertion that the table is anything other than a conduit for power.
What makes you think that the WK's mantle was tainted in any way?
Also, we know the life-force of Slate was given to Winter, but the WK mantle was not. It was already Winter's so there is no reason for it to have gone through the table. It DID just go back to Mab and she bestowed it on Harry.
I'm not seeing any evidence that the WK mantle went through the table to Mab to Harry, nor that the table is anything other than a conduit.
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