The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Bob's Personality, and Justin
jonas:
--- Quote ---Bob isn't human so he has no soul... I think you are confusing what Bob said about souls and soul fire because he worried Harry by telling him using soul fire uses up his soul.. He then goes on to say the hugs and stuff renew the soul, that is the human soul.
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AND he talks about how people swap bits of soul all the time by interaction which was why I pointed out Bob is considered Harry's long time friend. It proves an actual emotional connection for exchange of more than just magical aura, but rub off of Harry's soul itself... *cough*
--- Quote from: Quantus on August 17, 2017, 02:13:41 PM ---I really dont think so, because he simply does not ever get Soul, he cannot carry it can so cannot transfer it (even assuming Soul can go viral like that past the initial transfer).
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Magic influences, magic comes from the soul, and fuels life, life in turn regenerates soul. Seems legit? an a point that keeps being ignored... Like with Lash, the change from soul contact is basically just acquiring the will of Dresden.
Mantles have no soul but they do a helluva lot of influencing on their host, the spirit, the memories effect changes when combine with soul as the soul itself is what is capable of change. So Harry's spiritual programming of Bob, via aura, soul rub, direct contact with his magic, naming him thereby giving him a framework of identity changed his programming, ect. Which in turn effects what the next guy is going to get from said program. To quote
--- Quote from: John Henry --- if both I and my brother possessed the exact same sets of data, wouldn't we come to the same conclusions?
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In this case either way, Bob is that set of data, and Butters got The Dresden Cliff notes version. Causing him to literally 'go you-ing' as Dresden.
Bob's almost no different from a 'mantle' or other purely spiritual being except how the 'deal' works on housing him and where. Which of course effects the exact levels of interaction in the relationship without a 'host' but with a 'master'. Still a direct link to his owners being(that's why outside the skull he can still be commanded or made to listen to stipulations as Harry did with NecroBob) Anyone want's to refute that one... I'll make you a bet on it lol. ::) (for Kudo's only)
Quantus:
--- Quote from: jonas on August 17, 2017, 03:32:58 PM ---AND he talks about how people swap bits of soul all the time by interaction which was why I pointed out Bob is considered Harry's long time friend. It proves an actual emotional connection for exchange of more than just magical aura, but rub off of Harry's soul itself... *cough*Magic influences, magic comes from the soul, and fuels life, life in turn regenerates soul. Seems legit? an a point that keeps being ignored... Like with Lash, the change from soul contact is basically just acquiring the will of Dresden.
Mantles have no soul but they do a helluva lot of influencing on their host, the spirit, the memories effect changes when combine with soul as the soul itself is what is capable of change. So Harry's spiritual programming of Bob, via aura, soul rub, direct contact with his magic, naming him thereby giving him a framework of identity changed his programming, ect. Which in turn effects what the next guy is going to get from said program. To quoteIn this case either way, Bob is that set of data, and Butters got The Dresden Cliff notes version. Causing him to literally 'go you-ing' as Dresden.
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--- Quote ---Bob's almost no different from a 'mantle' or other purely spiritual being except how the 'deal' works on housing him and where. Which of course effects the exact levels of interaction in the relationship without a 'host' but with a 'master'. Still a direct link to his owners being(that's why outside the skull he can still be commanded or made to listen to stipulations as Harry did with NecroBob) Anyone want's to refute that one... I'll make you a bet on it lol. ::) (for Kudo's only)
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Im pretty sure this isnt the case, on the basis that Nemesis can Pass spirit to spirit, but it is not carried with a Mantle transfer. Mantles are something else, though I cant say what; I have two different theories: Mantles=Grace Shards, Mantles = Self-Sustaining Names (where a Name is 1/5th the Self along with things like Spirit and Soul, egyptian style). Still working on reconciling the two.
But I digress. Here's another much more mechanical reason I dont think Bob gets Soul from his friendship: That soul-swap mechanism you mentioned is the same one that provides the True Love Protections (if often less powerful than True Love), and that transfer is very specifically something that needs to be between equals, per WOJ. They may be friends, but they have never been anything close to equals. It's one of the noticeable differences between how Harry kept Bob (almost like a back-talking pet) and Butters that is willing to put more effort and thinks of him as a roommate rather than a magical computer/lab assistant.
Rasins:
Q - your right. I was referring to the fact that as a Spirit of Intellect, Bob has no soul, and thus cannot transfer soul.
Jonas - I understand what you are saying, but it's just not the case. Magic does not come from the soul. Harry only started using his soul to augment spells when he was given that power by Uriel. Before that, it was all arcane powers. The powers of the universe if you will.
How the two are related, we could discuss and argue forever.
Now, as to influence, Bob is like a computer. He provides data to his current sponsor and of course that is going to help said sponsor to determine a course of action. It is not the same as the influence that say Harry had when he ate Kavros' spirit.
I'm not saying that Harry doesn't consider Bob to be a friend. We all know he does. However, it's not a lot different that someone loving their car and centering their life around said car.
jonas:
--- Quote from: Quantus on August 17, 2017, 04:42:27 PM ---Im pretty sure this isnt the case, on the basis that Nemesis can Pass spirit to spirit, but it is not carried with a Mantle transfer.
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can ya give me some references for that inference? Cause i'm not sure what you mean.
--- Quote --- Mantles are something else, though I cant say what; I have two different theories: Mantles=Grace Shards, Mantles = Self-Sustaining Names (where a Name is 1/5th the Self along with things like Spirit and Soul, egyptian style). Still working on reconciling the two.
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Perhaps. And I do see merit most immortals are broken off of the same sources, but I see something else there too. Let's go ahead and make that bet if you like? The bet is, after PT i'll not have such trouble persuading ppl Bob's a mini deity :)
--- Quote ---But I digress. Here's another much more mechanical reason I dont think Bob gets Soul from his friendship: That soul-swap mechanism you mentioned is the same one that provides the True Love Protections (if often less powerful than True Love), and that transfer is very specifically something that needs to be between equals, per WOJ. They may be friends, but they have never been anything close to equals. It's one of the noticeable differences between how Harry kept Bob (almost like a back-talking pet) and Butters that is willing to put more effort and thinks of him as a roommate rather than a magical computer/lab assistant.
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Now... that's a good point. But it's making a leap between friendship and true love I don't think is there. Unless your saying Murphy and Harry were indelibly and equally in love in SmF? I thought that comradery and other things the soul is made of beside love itself would work, since 'true love' isn't really a formative of friendship itself.
Unless your also saying the soul is equal to love, but that's like saying soul is equal to magic isn't it? ;)
jonas:
--- Quote from: Rasins on August 17, 2017, 05:54:04 PM ---Q - your right. I was referring to the fact that as a Spirit of Intellect, Bob has no soul, and thus cannot transfer soul.
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And yet the atheme transferred an infection of the soul, but it has none of it's own? It gave a out a Mortal affliction.
--- Quote ---Jonas - I understand what you are saying, but it's just not the case. Magic does not come from the soul. Harry only started using his soul to augment spells when he was given that power by Uriel. Before that, it was all arcane powers. The powers of the universe if you will.
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Life comes from soul yes? Soul cannot exist independent of both life and spirit(hence why Butters soul starts fading in GS) Magic comes from Life yes? and if magic comes from life and soul grants life and living replenishes soul then I think either i'm doing a terrible job explaining this or you don't get what i'm saying. I could throw in other references of 'more of what you already are', ect. But either you get it or you don't. Positve energy is all positive energy in different forms of refinement.
--- Quote ---How the two are related, we could discuss and argue forever.
Now, as to influence, Bob is like a computer. He provides data to his current sponsor and of course that is going to help said sponsor to determine a course of action. It is not the same as the influence that say Harry had when he ate Kavros' spirit.
I'm not saying that Harry doesn't consider Bob to be a friend. We all know he does. However, it's not a lot different that someone loving their car and centering their life around said car.
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Except the car can't give you advice based on it's programming that would then cause you to decide your course. unless you have gps...
AND You keep providing me with the limit of what we do know while ignoring any loose ends I'm tying neatly together. Kravos, let's look at that influence, Kravos took a big bite right outta Harry's chi and in effect took on not only his form but his magic. He was influenced, while not overwhelmingly, the you are what you eat came into play.. Now let's look at Bob, simply by touching the skull he takes on the persona of he who touched it, he who choses to do so. Becoming Influenced to be more like them. That action of touching the skull constitutes taking up the pact and that direct overwhelming influence shows he is actually connected directly to their core. Saying that he's leaching off his life/or soul isn't a big logical leap. Nor is the idea that the original bargain that 'let Bob be who he was' could have been formed elsewhere than a skull.
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