Author Topic: Murphy in Peace Talks (WoJ spoilers)  (Read 72739 times)

Offline Mira

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Re: Murphy in Peace Talks (WoJ spoilers)
« Reply #270 on: September 01, 2017, 04:06:36 AM »
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But taking the coin and noose is definitely out of the question. Take that away, and Nick will get desperate. He might decide to cut his losses and take Harry's life as consolation prize first, and deal with Mab later.

He might try to kill Harry that is true, but Nic would be a rapidly aging 2,000 year old man..   He would be in no position to deal with Mab... Without the noose and the coin, Nic is just an ordinary mortal like Cassius.

Offline huangjimmy108

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Re: Murphy in Peace Talks (WoJ spoilers)
« Reply #271 on: September 01, 2017, 04:07:18 AM »
While Nic can of course lie however he wants, does he ever say that the Grail is his goal, or just their target?  Going after something target-adjacent needs no lying.

Also, I'm sure that Nic would indeed love to have the Grail.  Not as much as other stuff, but that doesn't mean he doesn't want it.  I'd be hard pressed to think of any sort of magical artifact he will just turn his nose up at, unless it has some inherent downsides.  Probably doesn't want a pair of coins fighting it out in his psyche or whatever.

Nick say he wants a cup. I think it is clear enough.

afterNick use the grail as a shield to block Excalibur, It is clear Nick don't really want the artifact. The grail is good, but it is still disposable to him.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2017, 04:36:33 AM by huangjimmy108 »
But they were doughnuts of darkness. Evil, damned doughnuts, tainted by the spawn of darkness . . .
    . . . which could obviously be redeemed only by passing through the fiery, cleansing inferno of a wizardly digestive tract.

Offline huangjimmy108

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Re: Murphy in Peace Talks (WoJ spoilers)
« Reply #272 on: September 01, 2017, 04:10:05 AM »
He might try to kill Harry that is true, but Nic would be a rapidly aging 2,000 year old man..   He would be in no position to deal with Mab... Without the noose and the coin, Nic is just an ordinary mortal like Cassius.

True, but Harry might still die. Saving a life is more important than punishing the evildoers. You might hurt Nick by taking the coin, but chances are good you'll suffer casualties as well. Following the code of the knights, not taking the coin should be the right choice.
But they were doughnuts of darkness. Evil, damned doughnuts, tainted by the spawn of darkness . . .
    . . . which could obviously be redeemed only by passing through the fiery, cleansing inferno of a wizardly digestive tract.

Offline Arjan

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Re: Murphy in Peace Talks (WoJ spoilers)
« Reply #273 on: September 01, 2017, 04:18:41 AM »
He might try to kill Harry that is true, but Nic would be a rapidly aging 2,000 year old man..   He would be in no position to deal with Mab... Without the noose and the coin, Nic is just an ordinary mortal like Cassius.
As long as he can give the order to the genoskwa. The genoskwa wants to kill Harry so even if Nicodemus is just a human he will still do it. And Nicodemus will not age that fast the first few hours anyway.

And until the coin is safely put away Nicodemus can still summon it back.
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Offline DonBugen

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Re: Murphy in Peace Talks (WoJ spoilers)
« Reply #274 on: September 01, 2017, 04:26:32 AM »
Quote from: peregrine
So, what he's looking to do is break Mab's word without getting caught.
Not quite.  Harry is looking to corner Nicodemus into breaking his word first so that Harry can act according to Mab's will without having broken Mab's word.

Quote from: huangjimmy108
When Butters I caught spying the denarians, he become  a hinderence to the operation. Nick orders Harry to end him, and with Butters status as a security risk, that order is valid.

Re-opening the NN pathway is different. Harry can always re-open another one. There is no risk to the operation so long as Nick truly does not intend treachery.

If Nick can order Harry to do anything at all, Nick probably would have order Harry to kill himself and be done with it.
Yup, absolutely spot-on.  It's because Harry is commanded to aid Nicodemus in his attempt to recover the grail that obligates him to follow commands that are directly related to the success of their mission.

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When did Mab state her intent and it is not her intent?

And you are wrong. Nick don't really want the grail. If it is there and it is a freeby, he'll take it of course, but he'll throw the grail away if he can get his hands on the knife, his presume true target.

If Mab say she wants the grail, it means she wants the grail. She might want something else along the grail and she may not tell you, but the grail remains her target.

That is the difference.
Absolutely true.  There's another type of lie that Nicodemus could be partaking in:  a lie of omission.  He's trapped in a position in which it's in his best interest to divulge what he's looking for, but would never be so transparent.  So instead of talking about the whole collection, he just talks about one piece.  It's probably the most famous piece and also the least useful; Michael even notes that he's not quite sure how Nick could use it for evil.  But it's the one he presents to everyone else.  The fact that he ALSO has a goal of four other divine artifacts... just never comes up.

The funny thing is, his omission of his true target is exactly what allows Dresden to hide what he's really after.  Because Nick expressed that everyone was welcome to any other items in the vault if they struck his fancy, and that his objective was a cup, that made the other four items up for grabs in Mab's eye.

As for Mab, the closest she ever came to expressing her true intention in plain words was in stating that she expected Dresden to be himself, and that she expected far superior treachery from him.  Dresden has to figure out for himself exactly her intentions.  'Cause she's Fae and is allergic to speaking the straight truth.

Quote from: huangjimmy108
Point 14 is indeed in contention. You say it is not compromise yet. In fact it is. In theory, Harry has not attack Nick or the genoskwa, but by his actions he has put Butters into a position of near absolute safety, which definitely will impede him from fulfilling Nicodemous's orders. Which is why I say that this argument would carry more weight if Butters actually die, one way or another. But no, Butters does not die. No matter what we say, even though it is still possible to kill Butters after he cross the fence, the fact of the matter is that the task is not done in the end. Nick orders to end Butters and Butters is not ended. If helping Butters before this can be swept under the rug with the word "honest incompotency", forzaring Butters across the fence is no longer "honest incompotency", it is either outright rebellion, or "true incompotency". Heck, the weak mortal doctor is right in front of you , no better than a turtle in a jar,  and you can't even end him! The excuse of incompotency should has it's limits.
I will agree with you that the argument of incompetence is a weak one.  Dresden is deceiving Gen and Nick while moving Butters into safety from everyone but himself.  However, the fact does still stand that Harry's actions do not impede his ability to kill Butters, and Harry cannot truly be accused of betraying Nick until he actually does something which damages their endeavor.

I do see your point of Quid Pro Quo.  If I understand you properly, you're stating that Dresden's pursuit of Butters could clearly be seen as attempting to sabotage his capture and a breach of contract.  And while Harry's bashing of Binder's gents could be explained by bad luck and incompetence, his rushing Butters over to the Carpenters' yard really could not.  I'm unsure if the fact that Nicodemus chose to allow this action in order to trap the sword has any weight in this situation.  After all, my argument still stands when Harry accuses Nick of breaking Mab's agreement - if the agreement was broken at that point, during the chase, then Nick doesn't have to defend telling Gen to kill Harry.  He can just say, "You betrayed me when you were pulling the doctor I ordered dead to safety.  I was in my rights to kill you, Dresden."

I'll have to think about that one.  Hm.
Quote from: huangjimmy108
As for Murphy. Perhaps it is indeed a good idea for her to stay true to the code of the KoTC. She can do like what Michael did in the gate of blood, when Nick is trying to sacrifice dierdra without interference. Kill him and I'll smite you down. Yes, she can do that, and this is precisely her mistake.

But taking the coin and noose is definitely out of the question. Take that away, and Nick will get desperate. He might decide to cut his losses and take Harry's life as consolation prize first, and deal with Mab later.
Hoo boy.  I'd love to see that battle.
Quote from: mira
He might try to kill Harry that is true, but Nic would be a rapidly aging 2,000 year old man..   He would be in no position to deal with Mab... Without the noose and the coin, Nic is just an ordinary mortal like Cassius.
It was two years between Death Masks and Dead Beat, which took Snakeboy from being a decently young-looking chap to being Liverspots.  Cassius is also considerably old.  Nick might age rapidly, but I doubt he would age that rapidly as to affect the battle.

Offline jonas

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Re: Murphy in Peace Talks (WoJ spoilers)
« Reply #275 on: September 01, 2017, 04:47:32 AM »
It is about Nicodemus lying, not Mab lying. Mab won't. Nicodemus is not bound to tell the truth the way Mab is so it makes no sense to expect him to follow rules the way Mab does.
....Yea... and i'm pointing out he no more lied than she who cannot lie so?

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The fae are unique in that respect and nobody in the books applies those rules to other creatures like vampires or denarian hosts. Nobody expects Nicodemus to tell the truth either.

If he says Tessa is after the grail, that that is her beef, that is an obvious lie. We know what her beef was, what she was after. She was not interested in that cup at all, she tried to prevent the crew from Even starting the whole thing.
So basically your trying to tell me he lies because he can lie as proof that he lies? ??? None of that proves Nic ever lied any more than Mab did, Whom obviously did not.
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Offline jonas

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Re: Murphy in Peace Talks (WoJ spoilers)
« Reply #276 on: September 01, 2017, 04:55:42 AM »
Saying that you want the grail when in truth you want something is a freaking blatant lie. A fae may to hide their intentions, but a fae can never say that they want something while in truth they want another thing. A fae might confuse you by answering a question with a question, or by simply being silent, but outright saying that they want one thing while in truth they want another thing is beyond their capabilities unless they are infected.
Did he take the grail? Yes. Did he therefor want the grail as part of the package deal of betraying them when he goal was in sight? Probably so. Does any of that effect if he wants the Blade MORE? No. If I go to BK saying when I leave I want a whopper and when I get there I get fries because I actually wanted fries on the whopper more than the whopper I didn't lie. He omitted that he wanted the Knife more so, he didn't lie about wanting the cup, he did indeed take it and took a shot from Dresden rather than risk it's demise. So he rather DID want the cup and what it could do.
By the same vein sending your minion to help secure an object when your intent is that they 'skin them alive' would be a blatant lie. But it is not... I'm not a lawyer, but I can give queen Mab herself a run for her money ;)
« Last Edit: September 01, 2017, 05:00:49 AM by jonas »
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Offline huangjimmy108

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Re: Murphy in Peace Talks (WoJ spoilers)
« Reply #277 on: September 01, 2017, 04:56:32 AM »
Not quite.  Harry is looking to corner Nicodemus into breaking his word first so that Harry can act according to Mab's will without having broken Mab's word.
Yup, absolutely spot-on.  It's because Harry is commanded to aid Nicodemus in his attempt to recover the grail that obligates him to follow commands that are directly related to the success of their mission.
Absolutely true.  There's another type of lie that Nicodemus could be partaking in:  a lie of omission.  He's trapped in a position in which it's in his best interest to divulge what he's looking for, but would never be so transparent.  So instead of talking about the whole collection, he just talks about one piece.  It's probably the most famous piece and also the least useful; Michael even notes that he's not quite sure how Nick could use it for evil.  But it's the one he presents to everyone else.  The fact that he ALSO has a goal of four other divine artifacts... just never comes up.

The funny thing is, his omission of his true target is exactly what allows Dresden to hide what he's really after.  Because Nick expressed that everyone was welcome to any other items in the vault if they struck his fancy, and that his objective was a cup, that made the other four items up for grabs in Mab's eye.

As for Mab, the closest she ever came to expressing her true intention in plain words was in stating that she expected Dresden to be himself, and that she expected far superior treachery from him.  Dresden has to figure out for himself exactly her intentions.  'Cause she's Fae and is allergic to speaking the straight truth.
I will agree with you that the argument of incompetence is a weak one.  Dresden is deceiving Gen and Nick while moving Butters into safety from everyone but himself.  However, the fact does still stand that Harry's actions do not impede his ability to kill Butters, and Harry cannot truly be accused of betraying Nick until he actually does something which damages their endeavor.

I do see your point of Quid Pro Quo.  If I understand you properly, you're stating that Dresden's pursuit of Butters could clearly be seen as attempting to sabotage his capture and a breach of contract.  And while Harry's bashing of Binder's gents could be explained by bad luck and incompetence, his rushing Butters over to the Carpenters' yard really could not.  I'm unsure if the fact that Nicodemus chose to allow this action in order to trap the sword has any weight in this situation.  After all, my argument still stands when Harry accuses Nick of breaking Mab's agreement - if the agreement was broken at that point, during the chase, then Nick doesn't have to defend telling Gen to kill Harry.  He can just say, "You betrayed me when you were pulling the doctor I ordered dead to safety.  I was in my rights to kill you, Dresden."

I'll have to think about that one.  Hm.Hoo boy.  I'd love to see that battle.It was two years between Death Masks and Dead Beat, which took Snakeboy from being a decently young-looking chap to being Liverspots.  Cassius is also considerably old.  Nick might age rapidly, but I doubt he would age that rapidly as to affect the battle.

Think of it in terms of profitability. That is how Nicodemous works, according to what Michael and Sanya explain things in book 5 and 10.

Of course Nick could call for Harry's betrayal and get rid of him, in which case he'll get rid of one enemy. In terms of the larger picture though, it accomplishes little. Harry is down,, and Mab would just send another agent and another unpredictable element may come into play.

It makes much more sense if Nick is really trying to get rid of the holy swords. Or in fact, Nick is actually targeting Murphy if not fid itself. The fact that fid and ammo is in her keeping should not be a secret to Nick.

In his mind, the only thing that could foil his plan is the appearance of a KoTC. Sanya is out of the picture. He is pin down in the middle east. 2 swords are in Chicago with no wielder. It is unlikely that a stranger will appear and suddenly become a knight. So the probability is one of Murphy or Harry's associate will take up the sword. The only viable candidate to wield a sword is Murphy herself, there is no one else. To make sure that Murphy won't suddenly take up a sword and become a KoTC, she must be dealt with ASAP. With her out of commission, even if fid is not broken, it is unlikely that a person that could wield a sword will appear and Nick could work his plans without worrying that Heaven will interfere.

As you can see, Murphy herself is quite a tempting target. Even if Nick does not know that she is carrying fid, the fact that she has a track record of wielding a holy sword valiantly in the past, is a serious threat to Nicodemous in itself. At any time, she could be Heaven's instrument to skrew up his plans.

Nicodemous's eyes is so focused on Murphy, he fail to see little Butters on the side.

What matters to Karrin is this. If Karrin does not appear and wield fid, at that point, thus depriving Nick from his true target, would Nicodemous just sigh in regret and let Harry go free?

Obviously not. If murphy does not wield fid and thus granting Nick what he wants, he'll likely take out his fury on Harry. This is why I mention that fid's breaking becomes Harry's salvation. Either Nick's target is truly Harry, and Murphy wielding fid distracted him from his true target, or it gaves Nick his real target and allow Harry to escape calamity.   
« Last Edit: September 01, 2017, 05:34:30 AM by huangjimmy108 »
But they were doughnuts of darkness. Evil, damned doughnuts, tainted by the spawn of darkness . . .
    . . . which could obviously be redeemed only by passing through the fiery, cleansing inferno of a wizardly digestive tract.

Offline huangjimmy108

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Re: Murphy in Peace Talks (WoJ spoilers)
« Reply #278 on: September 01, 2017, 05:03:57 AM »
Did he take the grail? Yes. Did he therefor want the grail as part of the package deal of betraying them when he goal was in sight? Probably so. Does any of that effect if he wants the Blade MORE? No. If I go to BK saying when I leave I want a whopper and when I get there I get fries because I actually wanted fries on the whopper more than the whopper I didn't lie. He omitted that he wanted the Knife more so, he didn't lie about wanting the cup, he did indeed take it and took a shot from Dresden rather than risk it's demise. So he rather DID want the cup and what it could do.
By the same vein sending your minion to help secure an object when your intent is that they 'skin them alive' would be a blatant lie. But it is not... I'm not a lawyer, but I can give queen Mab herself a run for her money ;)

He use the grail as a shield, that should tell you how much he truly wants the cup.
But they were doughnuts of darkness. Evil, damned doughnuts, tainted by the spawn of darkness . . .
    . . . which could obviously be redeemed only by passing through the fiery, cleansing inferno of a wizardly digestive tract.

Offline Arjan

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Re: Murphy in Peace Talks (WoJ spoilers)
« Reply #279 on: September 01, 2017, 05:18:00 AM »
....Yea... and i'm pointing out he no more lied than she who cannot lie so?
So basically your trying to tell me he lies because he can lie as proof that he lies? ??? None of that proves Nic ever lied any more than Mab did, Whom obviously did not.
I am proving he can lie by pointing to two lies and by pointing to the general understanding by everyone who knows something about him that he does.

The lie about tessa's intentions is even more clear. Tessa had no interest in the grail at all because she tried to stop Nicodemus too early for that. She was interested in saving Deirdre from her father.

Nicodemus is a known liar. There is some other quote in the books I can not find at the moment when Michael tells it sometimes takes years to disentangle truth from lies in what the denarians say. Nobody in the books in their right mind trusts anything they say.

My originall point is that using what Nicodemus says as a proof for anything when he has clearly something to gain by lying and when it is difficult to check is folly.

Expecting him to be bound by the same rules as the fae doesn't work either.
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Offline jonas

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Re: Murphy in Peace Talks (WoJ spoilers)
« Reply #280 on: September 01, 2017, 06:35:37 AM »
He use the grail as a shield, that should tell you how much he truly wants the cup.
He used the grail as a shield when he thought the Holy Knight wouldn't risk it's destruction. When Harry proves he doesn't care he ceases this tactic to avoid damage to the cup. The fact he takes a blow for the cup far outweighs a situation where he knows the knights faith will not let him do such a 'crime', or heresy I guess from Michaels perspective. Lol, it was in even less danger than Harry was from the Genoska.
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Offline jonas

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Re: Murphy in Peace Talks (WoJ spoilers)
« Reply #281 on: September 01, 2017, 07:03:51 AM »
I am proving he can lie by pointing to two lies and by pointing to the general understanding by everyone who knows something about him that he does.
He's two faced, he's deceptive, but I've not seen an lie yet..

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The lie about tessa's intentions is even more clear. Tessa had no interest in the grail at all because she tried to stop Nicodemus too early for that. She was interested in saving Deirdre from her father.
and whose to say she doesn't want it for herself? She did try and actually take Harvey for herself in fact
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"...You have something I want. I want you to give it to me."
SO she may have had a plan of her own if she had gotten to the resources first. She certainly wanted to stop Nic from sacrificing their daughter. But that's not all she wanted, or she would have been more pissed at Nic in the afterwards instead of training her grief upon Michaels family. She accepted what happened, she just didn't want it to happen like that. I'll admit, this is as close as you've actually pointed out to an affirmative lie, but too much shows she wanted the end goals if not the process that got them. She does want it for herself, and in her plan Deidre wasn't the sacrifice apparently.
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Nicodemus is a known liar. There is some other quote in the books I can not find at the moment when Michael tells it sometimes takes years to disentangle truth from lies in what the denarians say. Nobody in the books in their right mind trusts anything they say.
Citing perspectives of his enemies doesn't really show he readily lied...

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My originall point is that using what Nicodemus says as a proof for anything when he has clearly something to gain by lying and when it is difficult to check is folly.
Indeed, it is difficult to prove he lied outright.

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Expecting him to be bound by the same rules as the fae doesn't work either.
Never said he was, said he followed such regulations intentionally. I could cite various reasons to do so, giving strength to the father of lies by lying gives strength to a rival being the simplest one.. saying he lies because others tell you when you don't actually see him break faith anywhere doesn't work.
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Offline Arjan

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Re: Murphy in Peace Talks (WoJ spoilers)
« Reply #282 on: September 01, 2017, 07:52:31 AM »
He's two faced, he's deceptive, but I've not seen an lie yet..
and whose to say she doesn't want it for herself? She did try and actually take Harvey for herself in fact SO she may have had a plan of her own if she had gotten to the resources first. She certainly wanted to stop Nic from sacrificing their daughter.
Which is incompatible with getting the grail. She did not have the means and brains to organise the raid herself so her only option to get the grail was ambushing the party when they got out, sacrificing her daughter.

Even if she aqquired Harvey and not just killed him what was far more likely she would not be able to pass and she knew it. It was not important because everything points to her not interested in the grail.
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But that's not all she wanted, or she would have been more pissed at Nic in the afterwards instead of training her grief upon Michaels family.
She is a denarian host. Before lying to everybody else they lie to themselves. Of course she trained her grief on Michaels family. It is because of the influence of the fallen.

They are misled by the fallen all the time. Nicodemus needed a necromancer in stead of killing his daughter. He could at least have tried a near dead experience in stead of a full one. The fallen wanted him to kill his daughter.
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She accepted what happened, she just didn't want it to happen like that. I'll admit, this is as close as you've actually pointed out to an affirmative lie, but too much shows she wanted the end goals if not the process that got them. She does want it for herself, and in her plan Deidre wasn't the sacrifice apparently.Citing perspectives of his enemies doesn't really show he readily lied...
Certainly if one of them is kringle who really can not lie himself, that should be enough evidence. The rest is bonus.

And she tried to stop him. Stop him in ways that made it impossible for her to retrieve the grail. Clearly according to her the grail could rot wherever it was if she could keep her daughter.

And there was another lie in that lie too. He said Tessa wanted the same thing as he did.

Mab would not be able to say all those things. If she had used deception she would have worded it differently.


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Indeed, it is difficult to prove he lied outright.
I just did it two times in one book. And it is clear the knights did it as well, it just took time
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Offline jonas

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Re: Murphy in Peace Talks (WoJ spoilers)
« Reply #283 on: September 01, 2017, 10:06:00 AM »
Which is incompatible with getting the grail. She did not have the means and brains to organise the raid herself so her only option to get the grail was ambushing the party when they got out, sacrificing her daughter.
Don't turn this into a subjective he thinks she thinks tangent line that far off center please. Suffice it to say since she apparently held the same regard for her daughter as Deidre did Nic she could have convinced Deidre to take the grail for herself with her as the sacrifice. Taking the grail for her own purposes.

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Even if she aqquired Harvey and not just killed him what was far more likely she would not be able to pass and she knew it. It was not important because everything points to her not interested in the grail. She is a denarian host. Before lying to everybody else they lie to themselves. Of course she trained her grief on Michaels family. It is because of the influence of the fallen.
And this proves Nic lied how?

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They are misled by the fallen all the time. Nicodemus needed a necromancer in stead of killing his daughter. He could at least have tried a near dead experience in stead of a full one. The fallen wanted him to kill his daughter.Certainly if one of them is kringle who really can not lie himself, that should be enough evidence. The rest is bonus.
??? what?

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And she tried to stop him. Stop him in ways that made it impossible for her to retrieve the grail. Clearly according to her the grail could rot wherever it was if she could keep her daughter.
.. again, what?

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And there was another lie in that lie too. He said Tessa wanted the same thing as he did.
... uh, well,
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She want's it for herself of course
That's all he said, which isn't actually saying that's the only or main reasoning for what she's doing. If she know's why Nic wants it greedy denarian probably does want it for herself.

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Mab would not be able to say all those things. If she had used deception she would have worded it differently.
I'm not sure i'm willing to consider you an expert witness on if Mab could say it that way or how precisely she would word it. Suffice it to say she no more lied in the pretext of the deal than he did, and if she would be willing to accept how Nic broke the sword then neither did he there.

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I just did it two times in one book. And it is clear the knights did it as well, it just took time
No you didn't, I'm not really sure what your 2nd example even is supposed to be? An again what the knights did or did not prove hasn't been shown as anything more than an ad libbed factoid, as we know for a fact Nic destroys all the church documents every so often anyway. So they wouldn't know a lot. However, I believe what he actually said is it takes years to catch the fallen in a lie, not Nic or even the hosts in particular.
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Offline Arjan

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Re: Murphy in Peace Talks (WoJ spoilers)
« Reply #284 on: September 01, 2017, 11:15:14 AM »
Don't turn this into a subjective he thinks she thinks tangent line that far off center please. Suffice it to say since she apparently held the same regard for her daughter as Deidre did Nic she could have convinced Deidre to take the grail for herself with her as the sacrifice. Taking the grail for her own purposes.
Tessa sacrificing herself??? That is really more likely than Nic just lying? And if Nic knew Tessa was prepaired to sacrifice herself he would jump to it.
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And this proves Nic lied how?
No it explained why Tessa shifted the blame to Michael, it is easier and the fallen wanted it. Whatever they think those two are not really their own boss.
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 ??? what?
.. again, what?
one possibility is that Nicodemus just lied. The other possibility is that Tessa with a few ghouls wanted to take over Nicodemus operation, sacrifice herself in stead of her daughter and then somehow after her dead give the grail to her daughter without Nicodemus getting it from her. That means Tessa has to kill Nicodemus as well?

Because otherwise she could just walk in and tell nicodemus she wanted to die in her daughters place.

It is difficult to prove that Nicodemus lied if one is prepared to take virtual impossible scenarios as more likely than Nicodemus just lying.

Because even if the scenario was true the chance that Nicodemus believed it was certainly zero.

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... uh, well, That's all he said, which isn't actually saying that's the only or main reasoning for what she's doing. If she know's why Nic wants it greedy denarian probably does want it for herself.
Also Nicodemus did not really want it, he wanted the dagger. Which was proven by the fact that he stated that he wanted it as agreed upon by Kringle and Harry.
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I'm not sure i'm willing to consider you an expert witness on if Mab could say it that way or how precisely she would word it.
Watch when she answers Harry in small favor about her motives. Compare that with Nicodemus in skin game.
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Suffice it to say she no more lied in the pretext of the deal than he did, and if she would be willing to accept how Nic broke the sword then neither did he there.
Mab is not really interested in the swords, the white god can handle his own stuff.

And if Harry and Nicodemus agree on what happened then she has nothing to say about it, whether she believes it or not.
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No you didn't, I'm not really sure what your 2nd example even is supposed to be? An again what the knights did or did not prove hasn't been shown as anything more than an ad libbed factoid, as we know for a fact Nic destroys all the church documents every so often anyway. So they wouldn't know a lot. However, I believe what he actually said is it takes years to catch the fallen in a lie, not Nic or even the hosts in particular.
WG+++: The White God is Mister.
SH[Elaine+++]