The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Murphy in Peace Talks (WoJ spoilers)
DonBugen:
Mira, I agree with huangjimmy, Mr. Death, and the rest in regards to this theory you've posed, that Nicodemus wouldn't have ordered Butters' death and attempted to trap Dresden unless he thought that the swords were in play. That's completely out of character. Nicodemus has already shown that he'll go to extraordinary lengths for personal vengeance, and he's also shown that he doesn't think much about killing people - it's just a task to be done. Butters would have been a threat to the heist; he might not like Marcone, but I'm sure he would alert Marcone's people if it meant stopping Nicodemus Archleone. And to be honest, I'm slightly miffed that you hijacked my argument and used it to further yours, which I don't agree with; it's kind of made my arguments to the rest fall unanswered.
Jimmy: I hear what you're saying about Nicodemus' "trustworthiness". I'd like to state again that Nicodemus is a person who lies excellently when he feels the necessity to and tells the truth when he doesn't. He has no shame of his actions, and quite frankly talks about himself, his motivations, and his beliefs without any sort of obfuscation. However, I don't take his words here as truth because he's such a trustworthy boy scout; I take his words as truth because to actually have the Genoskwa kill Harry at this point would mean losing a critical part of his team, with no replacement. And if this job is so essential to his long-term goals as to kill his daughter and lover over, then he would not throw it away just to stick the knife in Harry a day early.
Mr. Death: You hadn't replied to my assertion before that on Harry's death, a freed Bonnie could also give testimony on the pure facts of what had occurred. She knows everything that Harry knows, would be freed upon his death, and Mab is aware of her. Even though she doesn't understand the context of the knowledge she has ("Pancakes are inanimate!!") she always could report accurately all the sounds of the past fifteen minutes, for example.
Furthermore, I want to also mention that there's other evidence that there would be witnesses to this exchange. The reason Harry closes the gate back to Marcone's vault right before he tackles the Gate of Ice is because he's fairly certain that Nicodemus would try some sort of underhanded assault deep in Hades' realm, where Mab was unlikely to have witnesses. Look at this in the reverse: If Harry was in more danger because there would not be witnesses here, then there must be a measure of safety in the real world because there could be witnesses. And again, I don't think that Nicodemus would be so reckless to jeopardize his entire enterprise on the chance that Mab doesn't have some way of verifying whether or not he's being treacherous, just to kill Harry a day ahead of time. If this job is important enough to kill Deidre for, it's important enough to not make stupid risks for personal vengeance.
Mira:
--- Quote ---Mira, I agree with huangjimmy, Mr. Death, and the rest in regards to this theory you've posed, that Nicodemus wouldn't have ordered Butters' death and attempted to trap Dresden unless he thought that the swords were in play. That's completely out of character. Nicodemus has already shown that he'll go to extraordinary lengths for personal vengeance, and he's also shown that he doesn't think much about killing people - it's just a task to be done. Butters would have been a threat to the heist; he might not like Marcone, but I'm sure he would alert Marcone's people if it meant stopping Nicodemus Archleone. And to be honest, I'm slightly miffed that you hijacked my argument and used it to further yours, which I don't agree with; it's kind of made my arguments to the rest fall unanswered.
--- End quote ---
I thought I was underscoring your arguments, because you did a very good job of proving my points...
No, it is completely in character.. Nic wouldn't have jeopardized deliberately his bargain with Mab by ordering Harry to do something he knew he'd find a way not to do, i.e. killing of Butters. Aside from that there were other ways to deal with Butters.. If Harry couldn't do it, Murphy would have been able to talk some sense into him so the mission wouldn't have been blown, so that is a bogus argument.. We have to take Nic at his word, he set the events in front of Michael's house up to take out a Sword because he had an opening to do so by Murphy's feelings about the mission of the Knights and her sneaking one along with her.. Ordinarily that not only got rid of a Sword, but put him at great advantage over a now isolated Harry on the mission, what he didn't foresee was the action/risk that Uriel was willing to take to make sure the mission was a success.. The whole idea that this was such a hush hush thing is blown out of the water by the series of events, as Harry pointed out at the end, the spinning about the explosions the removal/clean up of the bodies engineered by Mab and Marcone, the whole operation was years in the making... I am willing to bet as well, that Mab would have found a way for Butters to remain safe, his death would affect Harry, which would in turn screw up what she was trying to do...
DonBugen:
--- Quote from: Mira ---I thought I was underscoring your arguments, because you did a very good job of proving my points...
--- End quote ---
Just slightly miffed. Minimiffed. I just kinda felt like everyone lumped us up together, and the points you made weren't the ones I had intended. Not really your fault.
--- Quote from: Mira ---Nic wouldn't have jeopardized deliberately his bargain with Mab by ordering Harry to do something he knew he'd find a way not to do, i.e. killing of Butters.
--- End quote ---
Ah, but this is exactly what he would do. By giving Harry a command that is integral to their heist, yet he knows Dresden absolutely will not do, Nicodemus is cornering Harry into having to choose whether to let Butters die or betray Mab. He's out-maneuvering Harry.
--- Quote from: Mira ---If Harry couldn't do it, Murphy would have been able to talk some sense into him so the mission wouldn't have been blown, so that is a bogus argument..
--- End quote ---
Not so. Simply getting his agreement to talk couldn't be considered as successful of a resolution as killing him; dead men don't speak, after all. It's possible that Dresden could have convinced Nicodemus to either let him cast his sleep spell on Butters to make him unconscious for the duration of the heist, or to take him prisoner surrounded by Nick's goon squad, but I doubt he would accept those as an alternate plan. Harry didn't seem to think that it was worth trying.
--- Quote from: Mira ---We have to take Nic at his word, he set the events in front of Michael's house up to take out a Sword because he had an opening to do so by Murphy's feelings about the mission of the Knights and her sneaking one along with her..
--- End quote ---
We have to talk here about what is probable and what is improbable.
It's almost certain that Nicodemus had Anduriel following Harry and co. and listening in wherever he could. So Nicodemus would have known all about who Butters was, how close they were, and also the friendship that they once had and Butters' distrust. So it's probable that when the tracing spell was discovered and Dresden is suddenly gung-ho on killing this spy, Nicodemus puts two and two together to figure out who the spy is, and recognizes his opportunity to trap Dresden and get another retainer less likely to sabotage the job. Plus, there's always the chance that Karrin will bring a sword in, and she's clearly manipulable.
However, it's extremely improbable that Anduriel overheard Karrin saying she wasn't going to bring the sword, assumed that she would TOTALLY bring the sword, then had Genoskwa beat Harry up anticipating that Butters would attach a magical doo-dad to Harry's bandages and listen in so that he could send them on a wild chase across Chicago, all in order to pin them right before the one place that they would find refuge so that Karrin would pull out her sword and threaten them, so Nick and Gen could manipulate her into thinking the only way out would be to weaken it.
I mean, there's one thing about thinking a few steps ahead and taking advantage of the situation that presents itself. This is thinking about twenty steps ahead, counting for actions from people he doesn't know well and assuming they'll take actions that even their friends are surprised about. Nicodemus is a schemer, but this is attributing a godlike level of scheming. Now, I'm not saying that this is completely out of the realm of possibility, but a claim this outrageous demands extraordinary evidence. And considering that Nicodemus doesn't even seem either know or have remembered Waldo Butters' name, I doubt he has him that psychoanalyzed. Karrin, sure. But not the resourceful little rabbit, the Little Doctor.
--- Quote ---I am willing to bet as well, that Mab would have found a way for Butters to remain safe, his death would affect Harry, which would in turn screw up what she was trying to do...
--- End quote ---
Wait, Mab? Queen of Air and Darkness, lower her dignity enough to rescue a mortal from the consequences of his own actions? Just in order to make her Knight feel better? I sincerely doubt that she would even see the point in this. Mopiness does not become the Winter Knight.
huangjimmy108:
--- Quote from: DonBugen on September 02, 2017, 07:59:42 PM ---Mira, I agree with huangjimmy, Mr. Death, and the rest in regards to this theory you've posed, that Nicodemus wouldn't have ordered Butters' death and attempted to trap Dresden unless he thought that the swords were in play. That's completely out of character. Nicodemus has already shown that he'll go to extraordinary lengths for personal vengeance, and he's also shown that he doesn't think much about killing people - it's just a task to be done. Butters would have been a threat to the heist; he might not like Marcone, but I'm sure he would alert Marcone's people if it meant stopping Nicodemus Archleone. And to be honest, I'm slightly miffed that you hijacked my argument and used it to further yours, which I don't agree with; it's kind of made my arguments to the rest fall unanswered.
Jimmy: I hear what you're saying about Nicodemus' "trustworthiness". I'd like to state again that Nicodemus is a person who lies excellently when he feels the necessity to and tells the truth when he doesn't. He has no shame of his actions, and quite frankly talks about himself, his motivations, and his beliefs without any sort of obfuscation. However, I don't take his words here as truth because he's such a trustworthy boy scout; I take his words as truth because to actually have the Genoskwa kill Harry at this point would mean losing a critical part of his team, with no replacement. And if this job is so essential to his long-term goals as to kill his daughter and lover over, then he would not throw it away just to stick the knife in Harry a day early.
Mr. Death: You hadn't replied to my assertion before that on Harry's death, a freed Bonnie could also give testimony on the pure facts of what had occurred. She knows everything that Harry knows, would be freed upon his death, and Mab is aware of her. Even though she doesn't understand the context of the knowledge she has ("Pancakes are inanimate!!") she always could report accurately all the sounds of the past fifteen minutes, for example.
Furthermore, I want to also mention that there's other evidence that there would be witnesses to this exchange. The reason Harry closes the gate back to Marcone's vault right before he tackles the Gate of Ice is because he's fairly certain that Nicodemus would try some sort of underhanded assault deep in Hades' realm, where Mab was unlikely to have witnesses. Look at this in the reverse: If Harry was in more danger because there would not be witnesses here, then there must be a measure of safety in the real world because there could be witnesses. And again, I don't think that Nicodemus would be so reckless to jeopardize his entire enterprise on the chance that Mab doesn't have some way of verifying whether or not he's being treacherous, just to kill Harry a day ahead of time. If this job is important enough to kill Deidre for, it's important enough to not make stupid risks for personal vengeance.
--- End quote ---
In the case of witnesses, in fact Mab still have eyes in the underworld. Hades is Mab's collaborator after all, and with Hecate's and Hades's old relationship, it is likely that Hades stream everything live directly to Arctis Tor. From what I can tell, Mab unable to witness things is just empty talk on Harry's part. Harry's value to Nick is to help him pass the gate of ice. If there is any time Nick would try some backstabbing, it would be after the gate of ice. Whether Mab is looking or not, that aught be the time. In other words, Harry close the NN door as insurance, not because he is feeling insecure due to Mab unable to watch over him anymore. Harry is insecure, because simple common sense tells him that the showdown time is coming near. Whether or not Mab is watching has little bearing on the matter.
Anyway, the "no replacement" part is a problem. If Harry truly has broken the deal and the truce, Mab is bound by her word to replace Harry. Nick even specifically mention this if I remember correctly. Obviously Harry agrees with that assessment otherwise he'll call Nick's bullshit on the spot.
Killing Harry before the gate of ice will only be an inconvenience. Nick would have to inform Mab about Harry's breach of contract and demand compensation. This will take some time but not too much and Harry's replacement may or may not be worse compare to Harry. In exchange, Nick could get rid of Harry, a sure dangerous element whom Nick has a personal grudge with. Harry knows about the Noose and he almost manage to kill Nick once. Chances are high that Nick might decide that killing Harry is worth it even with the hassle involve.
If this is indeed what is running inside Nick's head at the time, Murphy's interference, whether or not it is planned by Nicodemous from the start, would most certainly draws Nick's attention. Nick will shift his target from Harry to Murphy, because as I said before Murphy is a tempting target herself, because at any time she can become a KoTC. However, if Murphy choose not to appear, Nick will never grow merciful and simply let things go. He'll do as much damage and dealt as much hurt as possible. Killing Harry is the simplest and the most obvious alternative if Murphy isn't there to grab Nick's Aggro.
So the important question is this: "Does Harry's action violated the deal and truce?"
If the answer is yes, Harry is no longer irreplaceable, and he can be killed. If the answer is no, Harry is indeed safe from Nick at the time.
The actions and words of Harry, Murphy, Butters, Bob, Michael and Uriel indicated that: yes, Harry has indeed broken the deal. So much so that he need to accept almost being killed by Nicodemous as the"Quid pro Quo" for his own transgressions. Unless all of them are idiots and only Nick understand the rules of the game, then Harry indeed broken the deal.
peregrine:
--- Quote from: DonBugen on September 02, 2017, 07:59:42 PM ---Mr. Death: You hadn't replied to my assertion before that on Harry's death, a freed Bonnie could also give testimony on the pure facts of what had occurred. She knows everything that Harry knows, would be freed upon his death, and Mab is aware of her. Even though she doesn't understand the context of the knowledge she has ("Pancakes are inanimate!!") she always could report accurately all the sounds of the past fifteen minutes, for example.
--- End quote ---
Who says that Bonnie becomes free if Harry dies?
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