The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Murphy in Peace Talks (WoJ spoilers)
KurtinStGeorge:
--- Quote from: DonBugen on September 02, 2017, 11:55:42 PM ---Wait, Mab? Queen of Air and Darkness, lower her dignity enough to rescue a mortal from the consequences of his own actions? Just in order to make her Knight feel better? I sincerely doubt that she would even see the point in this. Mopiness does not become the Winter Knight.
--- End quote ---
I've got to agree with you. If her mortal champion isn't capable of looking after his mortal friends; well, that really isn't her problem is it?
DonBugen:
Huangjimmy: totally agree with your analysis on the results of what would happen if Harry breaks the deal.
I don't, though, agree with your assessment on Harry closing the door to Chicago being about Mab not being able to observe what happens. Mostly because Harry argues it.
--- Quote from: ---“Sure,” I said. “See, the way I figure it, after I get you through this gate, I’ve got exactly zero utility to you people. It would be a great time for you to stick a knife in my back.”
“That wasn’t the plan,” Nicodemus said.
“Yeah, you’re such a Boy Scout, Nick,” I said, “with the best of intentions. But for the sake of argument, let’s say you weren’t. Let’s say you were a treacherous bastard who would enjoy seeing me dead. Let’s say you realized that here, in the most secure portion of the Underworld, the demesne of a major Power, there’d be no way for Mab to directly observe what you do. Let’s say your plan all along was to kill me and leave me here in the Underworld, maybe even try to pin the whole thing on me so that you don’t have to worry about the client, later—you could just let him tangle with Mab, sit back on your evil ass, and laugh yourself sick over it.”
--- End quote ---
So Harry says that if Mab can't directly observe and prove otherwise, that she would have to take Nick's word and take it up with Hades. Now, we know that would never happen due to their back-room dealings, but this illustrates the deal.
This means also that Mab must be keeping tabs on what happens elsewhere, either personally or through a trusted servant. She's got a few of those.
--- Quote from: huangjimmy108 ---The actions and words of Harry, Murphy, Butters, Bob, Michael and Uriel indicated that: yes, Harry has indeed broken the deal. So much so that he need to accept almost being killed by Nicodemous as the"Quid pro Quo" for his own transgressions. Unless all of them are idiots and only Nick understand the rules of the game, then Harry indeed broken the deal.
--- End quote ---
I argued against your assertion about Harry, Karrin, Butters, and Michael. I even addressed the "pro forma quid pro quo" quip that you cling to as complete evidence . To the best of my knowledge, you never responded to these, but are still holding them as reliable references. Is there some sort of hidden evidence that you have which you've never shared, or are you just declining to listen to my argument or declining to respond to it?
With that being said, who's left? Uriel? Bob? Bob isn't even in the scene at this point - he was last playing with Binder's chaps while being a lion, and we don't see him again until he follows Butters as he drives Karrin to the hospital. As for Uriel, Michael has people to save - Karrin, for one. Harry, too - either Harry's going to attack Nick in order to save Karrin, or Nick is going to command him to kill Butters again. Either way, Harry is far from in the clear at this point. Taking Michael's offer means that he completely agrees to let all three of them go.
Besides, in Ghost Story, Uriel stated that due to his duty of protecting freedom of choice, he is only given permission to correct a lie from the enemy in specific cases - that's what made his seven words to Dresden in the bottom of Demonreach so significant. How do you expect Uriel to act if Nicodemus is deceiving Michael? I mean, honestly. As Uriel can't correct a lie, what else could he really say other than "You don't need to do this; you've done enough." ?
You keep pointing to these people and saying, "Look, you're wrong - this is no deception; Nicodemus is really trying to kill them all because they all think they're going to be killed!! There's no way they could be deceived!" When we're talking about a scenario in which I'm arguing that Nicodemus is deceiving everyone into believing he's going to kill Harry, and keeping the one person familiar enough with Mab's judgement and fae law shut up,, an argument like the one you're posing is a non sequitur. You need something more substantial than "They all believe it!" when my claim is "They're being deceived."
I've given you ample evidence for why each would be acting the way that they do in this scene if there is a ploy going on. I've given you evidence for each individual character, plus I've given you the evidence that the Genoskwa provided, which covers the situation entirely. I've given you evidence for why Nicodemus would not want to risk Dresden's death unless he was absolutely, 100% positive that Harry was treacherous. You need to provide something more to back up your claim. And by the way - the argument you keep mocking, stating about "we should trust Nick's words because he said so" is your strawman argument, not mine. It's also, to the best of my knowledge, not Mira's - not exactly. Please stop using it when debating.
This is not lunacy. This is common sense.
Oh, and Peregrine - Mab says that Bonnie becomes free if Harry dies.
--- Quote ---Gooseflesh erupted along my arms. She was talking about Maggie. My daughter.
“She’s out of this,” I said in a whisper. “She’s protected.”
“Not from this,” Mab said, her tone remote. “Not from a being created of your own essence, just as she is. Your death will bring a deadly creature into the world, my Knight—one who knows all that you know of your allies. Lovers. Family.”
--- End quote ---
forumghost:
Urgh, and once again I'm reminded that a literal platoon of Angels, (apparently with their boss Uriel on speed-dial) are completely and utterly useless as bodyguards...
Why were they even put their again? To improve the Feng-sue?
"We can't stop Denarians from literally standing outside and sending an army in. We can't stop Intellect spirits from coming in, Maggie and Mouse even have to slay their own Under-Bed Monster- But dudes, we're totally protecting this place, honest!"
huangjimmy108:
--- Quote from: DonBugen on September 03, 2017, 03:25:13 AM ---Huangjimmy: totally agree with your analysis on the results of what would happen if Harry breaks the deal.
I don't, though, agree with your assessment on Harry closing the door to Chicago being about Mab not being able to observe what happens. Mostly because Harry argues it.So Harry says that if Mab can't directly observe and prove otherwise, that she would have to take Nick's word and take it up with Hades. Now, we know that would never happen due to their back-room dealings, but this illustrates the deal.
This means also that Mab must be keeping tabs on what happens elsewhere, either personally or through a trusted servant. She's got a few of those.
I argued against your assertion about Harry, Karrin, Butters, and Michael. I even addressed the "pro forma quid pro quo" quip that you cling to as complete evidence . To the best of my knowledge, you never responded to these, but are still holding them as reliable references. Is there some sort of hidden evidence that you have which you've never shared, or are you just declining to listen to my argument or declining to respond to it?
With that being said, who's left? Uriel? Bob? Bob isn't even in the scene at this point - he was last playing with Binder's chaps while being a lion, and we don't see him again until he follows Butters as he drives Karrin to the hospital. As for Uriel, Michael has people to save - Karrin, for one. Harry, too - either Harry's going to attack Nick in order to save Karrin, or Nick is going to command him to kill Butters again. Either way, Harry is far from in the clear at this point. Taking Michael's offer means that he completely agrees to let all three of them go.
Besides, in Ghost Story, Uriel stated that due to his duty of protecting freedom of choice, he is only given permission to correct a lie from the enemy in specific cases - that's what made his seven words to Dresden in the bottom of Demonreach so significant. How do you expect Uriel to act if Nicodemus is deceiving Michael? I mean, honestly. As Uriel can't correct a lie, what else could he really say other than "You don't need to do this; you've done enough." ?
You keep pointing to these people and saying, "Look, you're wrong - this is no deception; Nicodemus is really trying to kill them all because they all think they're going to be killed!! There's no way they could be deceived!" When we're talking about a scenario in which I'm arguing that Nicodemus is deceiving everyone into believing he's going to kill Harry, and keeping the one person familiar enough with Mab's judgement and fae law shut up,, an argument like the one you're posing is a non sequitur. You need something more substantial than "They all believe it!" when my claim is "They're being deceived."
I've given you ample evidence for why each would be acting the way that they do in this scene if there is a ploy going on. I've given you evidence for each individual character, plus I've given you the evidence that the Genoskwa provided, which covers the situation entirely. I've given you evidence for why Nicodemus would not want to risk Dresden's death unless he was absolutely, 100% positive that Harry was treacherous. You need to provide something more to back up your claim. And by the way - the argument you keep mocking, stating about "we should trust Nick's words because he said so" is your strawman argument, not mine. It's also, to the best of my knowledge, not Mira's - not exactly. Please stop using it when debating.
This is not lunacy. This is common sense.
Oh, and Peregrine - Mab says that Bonnie becomes free if Harry dies.
--- End quote ---
Don. Do you know why I keep pointing that they all believed it? Because in the end, that is all that we can determine for certain.
True, you can explain why Michael may be in error. You can explain why Harry could be fooled and so on. But I also can explain why Nicodemous's words can't be trusted. We can argue back and forth without end.
What does this mean?
It means, all of that is just our own supposition without true evidence. We are trying to guess the inner workings of the characters mind through their actions, but those actions are limited by the pages of the book. We don't have enough information. it is hardly precise and reliable, not to mention all of those information are filtered through Harry's perception. The book does not tell us who is lying, who is sincere, who is sincere but mistaken, who is not sincere but mistaken enough to end up as looking sincere and so on. We rely based on our own interpretation and perception for those.
Sadly, this is the limit of first person PoV. It is all too easy to suit the facts to fit our theory. In the end, we need to make a choice who to believe. Are we going to believe the likes of Nicodemous, or are we going to believe the group consisting of Murphy, Harry, Michael and Butters.
Without the support of solid facts like a direct WoJ. If the choice is about whom to be believed. Who you can trust. I stand on my statement that anyone who choose to trust in Nick under such circumstances is a lunatic.
Arjan:
Or has accepted a coin?
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[#] Next page
[*] Previous page
Go to full version